"Sunny 16" rule

[removed account4]

i know from photographing areas that have
sodium vapor lamps (? ) it is about f4 @ about 4 seconds
so i would bracket a little bit and use that as my base.
i'd probably settle on f8 @ 15 seconds ... or a little longer exposure
since too much is ( for me at least ) always better than not enough.
than for part 2 i'd stand develop it for about 30-35 mins in spent caffenol C
with a few oz of spent dektol ...

 

[Hatchetman]

f8 10 seconds is what I used.

 

[NedL]

Wow I'm impressed. You and John landed on very nearly the same exposure.

 

[rpavich]

For scenes at night I use my Black Cat Extended Range Exposure Guide http://www.blackcatphotoproducts.com/guide.html

That looks interesting.
I noticed that he's got a phone app that does the same thing. It's free to download.

 

[removed account4]

Wow I'm impressed. You and John landed on very nearly the same exposure.

"educated guess"

f8 10 seconds is what I used.

hi hatchetman

sorry, i just now realized i didn't answer your meter question
if i had to METER this exposure i would probably do it 1 of 2 ways ...
if i could, i'd meter where the light is hitting the building under the lights
and use that as my base and add a stop or 2, or i would stand in the middle of the road
and hold the meter in front of me and take a reading in the light with the globe facing me
and take a couple incident readings i'd take another one where there is detail and not direct light and average the 2 readings.
and then i might give an extra stop of light ( knowing that is what my meter might be telling me is "middle grey" ).

 

[Vaughn]

Rolleiflex with built-in 'meter'!

I use the sunny-16 rule to check my hand-held meters.

 

[faberryman]

Since meters are generally less accurate in low light situations, I would meter the brightest non-light source part of the scene, in this case the two metal strips next to the track, which I would want to print as bright but with texture (Zone VII), and add two stops for my base exposure, then make a second exposure at 2x the time, and a third exposure at 4x the time. Since we are likely into reciprocity error times, I might make a fourth exposure at 8x the time. The object is to get the best possible negative to print from.

 

[Hatchetman]

I like that answer. I have read the Zone System and sort of understand it more or less. So yes that makes sense. Although I'd have to buy a spot meter.

However, there is a moving train in the photo. You get one crack at it.

 

[removed account4]

However, there is a moving train in the photo. You get one crack at it.

you mean we don't get to meter read and calculate ?
you know since i don't get to futz i would have to come a few days before
scout the location, take a few test exposures have the film procesed
examine what i did, map it out and return hoping the train came by at
the same time and there were people there and the scene was "kind a sorta " the same.
otherwise i would have winged it and as i set the tripod down i would have said " 15 seconds "
and been done with it, no coming back, no scouting locations, kind of what you might have done ...


===

vaughn
thanks for show-boatin'

 

[faberryman]

However, there is a moving train in the photo. You get one crack at it.

Night Train

Interesting. I see what appear to be moving lights on the right above the track. If those are the lights of the train, then it must have been moving very slowly to have only traveled the distance of the lights during the 10 second exposure. If it were traveling that slowly, you would expect to see the blur of the train itself, yet the tracks under the lights are clean as a whistle. It would appear as if it were a double exposure. The first exposure a multi-second one without a train in the image, and the second very short so that only the bright lights of the train coming in (by) were captured.

Perhaps we could get a more comprehensive description of the scene as it unfolded.

If I only got one crack at it, I obviously wouldn't be able to bracket. I'd just go with my base exposure.

 

[faberryman]

you mean we don't get to meter read and calculate ?
you know since i don't get to futz i would have to come a few days before
scout the location, take a few test exposures have the film procesed
examine what i did, map it out and return hoping the train came by at
the same time and there were people there and the scene was "kind a sorta " the same.
otherwise i would have winged it and as i set the tripod down i would have said " 15 seconds "
and been done with it, no coming back, no scouting locations, kind of what you might have done ...

More hyperbole. More mocking.

It wasn't exactly a decisive moment situation. He obviously had enough time to scout out his vantage point, set up his tripod, mount his camera, compose and focus, set his shutter speed and aperture, and wait for the train to come by in just the right location. I suspect he had a few extra seconds in there somewhere to take a meter reading (if he wanted to) before pressing the shutter.

 

[faberryman]

I like that answer. I have read the Zone System and sort of understand it more or less. So yes that makes sense. Although I'd have to buy a spot meter.

Not really. It would be convenient, but after you had gotten all set up with your camera on a tripod, composed, focused, etc. and were waiting on the train, you could have walked up to the spot I mentioned, and taken a meter reading, just to double check yourself. Kind of like those who eschew zoom lenses and instead zoom with their feet.

 

[Hatchetman]

You are right, it is a double exposure. 5 seconds before the train arrived, 5 seconds as the train was leaving the station. Train was moving very slowly just pulling out. That is the rear of the train, otherwise the headlamps would have really blown the image out.

my meter is a luna pro. I guess I could have used it as you say, though it had never occurred to me. I will try it next time out of curiosity. Though I don't get out much at night anymore.....

 

[removed account4]

luna pros are fantastic in low light .. !

 

[removed account4]

More hyperbole. More mocking.

not really, no mocking, no hyperbole - not posted nor intended. sorry you have
taken what i have said about ME not needing to use a meter as some sort of attack
on your or anyone else's shooting style. if you want to use a meter, please use one.
i have never suggested you or anyone else not use a meter. its been suggested here on apug
that not using a meter is some sort of creative crutch, and wasting precious resources. i'd rather not
be a part of some underground group that gives people bad advice. i posted what *I* do, not what
i am suggesting you do.
for me, in most cases, i can judge the light easier (unless i can't ) without a meter.
kodak used to print a pictogram on every film box to expose at sunny 16 ( the subject of this thread )
as vaughn showed, so did rollei, if it didn't work, people wouldn't use it, i am guessing
companies ( maybe there are others? ) wouldn't have suggested people expose that way, unless
( as i have read in the past ) it was some sort of pan-industry-pan-generational-conspiracy to get people to expose poorly,
so they would buy more film ... but i doubt that is true. it works, so they suggested people use it.

if you read what i wrote i suggested a way to meter the scene both from a distance and up
close both that night and running a test roll and returning the next day.
and earlier i suggested what i would do without a meter. it seems to be that i suggested almost what
hatchetman exposed at ( i also said to bracket and suggested a way to develop the film in a way i
typically do, which works in situations like this ... but film processing style/technique is a differnt thread)
and i also suggested what you said he do --- ( before you posted it ).
not sure how that can be considered mocking you or him or anyone else.
maybe you took offense at the word "futz" ? i consider my fumbling around with a meter attempting to
figure out what to meter-read, and mentally calculating from a distance what the exposure might or might
not be futzing around. if i was on assignemnt and my managing editor said " get that night shot with the
train going by" i might have missed it if it was a speiclal moment, if it wasn't a special moment, and i had time/resources
to expose a test roll, and return ...
instead of saying " i've exposed in a situation like this before, almost the same sort of lighting and it was .. this, and i'll bracket"

seems you just arrived here on apug in june... you'll notice from not only
posts in this thread, but the 1.8 million+ posts here, that there are as many ways to
expose light sensitive materials, as there are people with ( or without ) a camera.
hopefully you'll stick around and share your methods as much as everyone else
( who might or might not share your ways ) shares theirs.

 

[faberryman]

You are right, it is a double exposure. 5 seconds before the train arrived, 5 seconds as the train was leaving the station. Train was moving very slowly just pulling out. That is the rear of the train, otherwise the headlamps would have really blown the image out.

I am surprised it was 5 and 5. I would have expected to have seen the shadow of the train and not just its lights if it had been in the frame for half of the exposure time.

 

[faberryman]

not really, no mocking, no hyperbole - not posted nor intended.

maybe you took offense at the word "futz" ? i consider fumbling around with a meter attempting to
figure out what to meter-read, and mentally calculating from a distance what the exposure might or might
not be futzing around.

I'll guess I just continue to fumble and futz around with my my meter attempting to get the right exposure while the world passes me by. To each his own.

 

[removed account4]

sorry for the confusion, i should have said " i consider MY fumbling around ... "
i have edited my post so there won't be any further confusion ..
==

since you seem to know your way around a light meter, why don't you write an article in the resources area
( (there was a url link here which no longer exists) ) so others might learn from your experience ?

 

[Simon Howers]

Hmm, seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest. I'm still attempting to upload a result.......

This is bright low sun shot using the Rule.
So; Pan F with a Y filter makes 1/20th Sec at f16
Zeiss Ikon 120 folding camera.
Dev 6 mins in RO9 at 20 degreesC.
This is Baskerville Hall, Clyro, Mid Wales.

 

[barzune]

OK, that works perfectly ( to my old eyes).
Carry on.

 

[pdeeh]

Hmm, seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest.

Simon, if you'd posted the observations that the sky is blue and cows eat grass, I'm quite sure some apuggers would have found themselves compelled to offer contrary opinions