Sunny 16-Fact or Fiction?

Mark Crabtree · Nov 27, 2015

I very seldom use a meter, or feel the need for one, in daytime outdoor light, or in average artificial light; I do often carry a meter for fringe conditions that are hard to judge.

For me, the problem with Sunny 16 is that it doesn't take shadows into account. As the sun comes in and out on days with intermittent clouds, an averaging meter or sunny 16 would indicate the exposure changes a lot more than I would adjust. The shadows just aren't changing that much. I can see that in open areas of Florida (and other places) it might be different. Or if you subject just falls in the light and there are not significant areas of shadow that need detail. Where I live, West Virginia, I would use Sunny 11 as a base and adjust from there. There are times when I might use 16 or even 22, but those are very unusual shots for me.

I think it was Mike Johnston that had a nice article with an approach to shooting without a meter years ago; I don't know if it is online. He was much more organized than I am about it, but basically if you pictures are unexposed, give more exposure, and use that as the basis for future shots. Pretty simple really. The majority of conditions are very predictable, for the ones that aren't I use a meter.

ColColt · Nov 27, 2015

Many years ago when I was shooting a lot more and using K64 for test purposes I found I was much better at judging exposure sans meter tha I am today. I'd take my Leica M2 and walk around town during lunch doing street shooting and never had an underexposed negative. I don't have that confidence today as I was shooting quite often back then-several rolls a week or more and always had the camera around my neck to check various situations of light/dark, shadows, shade, bright sun, etc. to get a feel for how the camera responded. I kept notes for a long time shooting with and without the meter and by using the slides I knew if I screwed up it was me as the slides didn't lie.

The basics are ingrained in your mind but there's times when you can get fooled, I've found since that time, and rely more on an accurate meter than I did then. If I'm downtown shooting I'll check a few times in sunlight and shade and go from there not checking each shot for exposure as it's pretty much set and won't change more than 1/2 stop from one situation to the other. Henri Cartier-Bresson I'm not, nor will ever be. I've read he could tell you the shadow and highlight exposure on your face under a given light without any meter. That takes someone who shoots a lot-much more than I have over the past year.

Theo Sulphate · Nov 27, 2015

For 15 years I never used the meter in my Pentax because the switch was prone to breaking off. I'm also too lazy to buy batteries for my F2's.

However, I do use a meter for interior shots because I don't have a lot of experience with those. For my Minox IIIs I also need a meter because I'm not used to thinking in terms of a fixed f/3.5 aperture.

For medium format, it's a Zone VI modified Pentax spotmeter all the way.

Sirius Glass · Nov 27, 2015

I have used my Nikon F-100 with the Nikon 28mm to 200mm AF zoom lens or the Tamron 28mm to 300 AF zoom lens as a spot meter for my 4"x5" cameras. :devil:

Gerald C Koch · Nov 27, 2015

The sunny 16 rule works quite well and I have used it in emergency situations caused by sudden battery failure in a camera or light meter. It does make a number of assumptions that the user should be aware of. For example it assumes a subject of "average" reflectance which may not always be the case. I was reminded of the science joke of "works only for spherical chickens in a vacuum."

OzJohn · Nov 28, 2015

ColColt said:
The film box insert I had in reference to and stated the date shows 500 at f22 for Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows). That's what I went by. If it were true in 1997 the date on the pamphlet, it should be the same today. As everyone should remember, Kodak inserted that little fold up sheet in every box of film they sold at one time. To me, sunny 16 should be ASA speed and f16, in this case Tri-X at 400 and closest should be 500 at f16. That's what I'm getting at. My exposure meters show 250 at f11 for the instances of a Bright Sunny day, not 500 at f16 or f22

I would suggest that neither Kodak's recommendation from 1997 nor your own exposure determination for TX are universally applicable because of many variables that could be in play. But neither are they wrong for a certain combination of latitude and ambient light. Sunny 16 is a rule of thumb that is learned by most serious photographers and used intelligently, with or without the backup of a meter, has proved its worth over generations. I frankly can't see the point of the discussion. OzJohn

Ian Grant · Nov 28, 2015

I agree the Sunny 16 rule is reasonably good, it's very close to my typical exposures in Turkey/Greece of 1/250 @ f22 400EI on a typical sunny day. Seems about right here in the UK as well.

Ian

Mark Crabtree · Nov 28, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
The sunny 16 rule works quite well and I have used it in emergency situations caused by sudden battery failure in a camera or light meter. It does make a number of assumptions that the user should be aware of. For example it assumes a subject of "average" reflectance which may not always be the case. I was reminded of the science joke of "works only for spherical chickens in a vacuum."

It seems like subject reflectance would be an issue with meters (except incident), but not with sunny 16. A black and a white spherical chicken would meter differently, but require the same exposure.

markbarendt · Nov 28, 2015

adelorenzo said:
I live North of 60 and I use Sunny 16 all the time, it works just dandy. In the summer we have endless hours of sunlight and in the winter the sun reflects off the snow there is no lack of sunlight.

I have no doubt adelorenzo. I truly believe sunny 16 works perfectly.

Sirius Glass said:
David, in my not so humble opinion, northern Europe is too far north for Sunny 16 and Sunny 11 applies. For the OP see below:

View attachment 120490

The chart itself is only correct for front lit subjects. We need to adjust those suggestions for our individual biases, situations, preferences, and the limitations of our tools.

ColColt said:
I don't know guys. I'm just trying to get a handle on this. I do know that if I expose at 500 at f16 I'm going to get some terribly underexposed thin negatives with no shadow detail.

IMO to use the chart/sunny 16 rule well we need to read between the lines to understand the assumptions that are made.

On your shots ColColt, where the negatives are thin and there is little shadow detail, are they from cross lit or backlit situations? Did you adjust for that?

Same basic question to Sirius, are your shots in northern Europe normally cross lit? Are there other factors biasing your preference?

The fine print around the chart tells us that backlit closeups need three extra stops of exposure. So as we move around "the subject" from front lit to backlit our exposure needs to adjust to get detail in "our subject". If our subject is cross lit or backlit, then a good chunk of our subject matter is technically in the shade and we need to shoot accordingly.

markbarendt · Nov 28, 2015

Mark Crabtree said:
It seems like subject reflectance would be an issue with meters (except incident), but not with sunny 16. A black and a white spherical chicken would meter differently, but require the same exposure.

Very close, that's why I stick with incident meters for critical work.

removed account4 · Nov 28, 2015

i think one problem that arises is people don't all judge light and light conditions the same way.
OR adjust their exposers through experience of knowing that sunny/hazy bright light might not have worked
out at 5ooth /16 and to expose a little heavier the next time. i have read a lot of people's troubles over the years
for sunny 16, for photographing at the beach or snow scenes or whatever, and they don't do anything besides
sunny16, even when they might know the last time they did that, they were underexposed 2 or 3 stops.
while i love looking at the little pictograms inside the film boxes and know their little pictures for exposure are often accurate but
i know that from my own experience sunny 16 doesn't work as well for me as sunny 11, or if i am using 15 year outdated film, maybe sunny 8.5 ..
i know that if i had fresh film ( chrome or c41 ) and exposed it at sunny 11 i would most likely get exactly what i expect ( it is middle grey )
so i will over or under expose as needed to get the rest. its like using the palm of one's hand intead of a grey card ...
i also know that if i use a soft working film developer ( like stock caffenol C or xtol (for me at least ) sunny 16 or 11 might not be the best exposure
because the way i use them, those developers like more exposure.

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm
is a pretty helpful article

markbarendt · Nov 28, 2015

jnanian said:
i know that from my own experience sunny 16 ...

We all need to say this before we decide on a setting.

ColColt · Nov 28, 2015

On your shots ColColt, where the negatives are thin and there is little shadow detail, are they from cross lit or backlit situations? Did you adjust for that?

I've never used the Sunny 16-take that back. I did long ago when I first got into photography thinking the gurus at Kodak knew what they were talking about in their insert pamphlets. When I did that with K64 I got underexposures. Since I've always used(for Tri-X) and verified by meter that most all front lit subjects of average reflectance, such as shooting my tri-color dog sitting on grass or a typical normal scene was 250 at f11-not 500 at f16. My experience over rode the Sunny 16 rule and I was just curious how this came about, where it was put in stone and under what conditions as it just never worked here for me.

These readings I mentioned were taken around 11:00-3:00 afternoon.

ColColt · Nov 28, 2015

It's currently 12:10pm here. I went outside with my trusty and true Luna Pro SBC just serviced by George at Quality Light Metric, put it in incident mode and turned it a 180 degree arc to be sure I was at the brightest area and it read 250 between f4-5.6. It's overcast here and zero sun. Logic tells me if the sun had been out I would have gotten the 250 at f11 I most always get.

Mark Crabtree · Nov 28, 2015

ColColt said:
It's currently 12:10pm here. I went outside with my trusty and true Luna Pro SBC just serviced by George at Quality Light Metric, put it in incident mode and turned it a 180 degree arc to be sure I was at the brightest area and it read 250 between f4-5.6. It's overcast here and zero sun. Logic tells me if the sun had been out I would have gotten the 250 at f11 I most always get.

Of course there is unlikely to be much information falling into shadow in those conditions, so your exposure can be less than indicated. If you repeated the same thing (as you described it) on a sunny day you would likely need more exposure than the meter indicates (depending on the shadows in the subject). Phil Davis is a great source for things like this. I don't use his system (BTZS), and find his presentation of it sort of clunky, but he explained concepts that had never really occurred to me.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 28, 2015

Mark Crabtree said:
It seems like subject reflectance would be an issue with meters (except incident), but not with sunny 16. A black and a white spherical chicken would meter differently, but require the same exposure.

The OP asked the question why the sunny 16 rule and his meter did not agree. I was attempting to point out the difference.

pentaxuser · Nov 28, 2015

I agree with you, ColColt. In your case sunny 16 is a fiction and strangely enough your case is the only one that matters when it comes to exposing your pictures.

If we try hard enough we might convince you that sunny 16 is right but if we do then your pics will be underexposed. We get the satisfaction of proving the case for sunny 16 and you get the satisfaction of underexposed negs.

No wait, I am sure there is something wrong with my last sentence. It sounds like the recipe for a loveless, arranged marriage

pentaxuser

markbarendt · Nov 28, 2015

ColColt said:
It's currently 12:10pm here. I went outside with my trusty and true Luna Pro SBC just serviced by George at Quality Light Metric, put it in incident mode and turned it a 180 degree arc to be sure I was at the brightest area and it read 250 between f4-5.6. It's overcast here and zero sun.

Your reading is within a stop of the chart as I read it, well within the limits of Tri-X's normal latitude.

The lighting condition for your world today is low in contrast, the shadows are getting lots of fill light from the clouds so in your world today it's hard to find a deep black shadow even under a car that's going to bump the toe of the film curve. A Tri-X negative shot in those conditions would probably print very nicely from a shot at 500 and 5.6.

MattKing · Nov 28, 2015

For ASA 400:

1/500 @ f/22 was the exposure recommended in the inserts for "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)" and very light subjects, such as photos including large areas of either snow or white sand.

1/500 @ f/16 was the exposure recommended in the inserts for "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)" in subjects with a normal range of tones.

I'm afraid that the OP is mis-remembering the inserts (slightly).

That being said, the insert information/Sunny 16 is oriented toward cameras that might exhibit a bit more flare, and therefore need a little bit less exposure.

In my case, I use Sunny 16 as a reference check whenever I expose film outside during the day. I always find it useful, and often it gives results within the latitude of the film.

ColColt · Nov 28, 2015

1/500 @ f/22 was the exposure recommended in the inserts for "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)" and very light subjects, such as photos including large areas of either snow or white sand.

1/500 @ f/16 was the exposure recommended in the inserts for "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)" in subjects with a normal range of tones.

I'm afraid that the OP is mis-remembering the inserts (slightly).

No, Matt, I think it depends on which insert you have. The later ones in the late 90's are different than the one I have in 1987 and that's the only one I kept. It shows this...

500 at f22-Bright or Hazy Sun on light sand or snow.

500 at f22-Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)

500 at f16-Weak Hazy sun(Soft Shadows)

That insert is lying right in front of me.

MattKing · Nov 28, 2015

Any chance the insert is for Recording Film (ASA 1000)?

ColColt · Nov 28, 2015

Nope, its for Tri-X Pan.(6043)

onre · Nov 28, 2015

Technical data document for TRI-X Pan 5063 and 6043, dated July 1996, has this:

Bright or Hazy Sun on Light Sand or Snow 1/500 f/22
Bright or Hazy Sun (Distinct Shadows) 1/500 f/16
Weak, Hazy Sun (Soft Shadows) 1/500 f/11
Cloudy Bright (No Shadows) 1/500 f/8
Heavy Overcast or Open Shade 1/500 f/5.6

Use f /8 at 1/500 for backlighted close-up subjects.
Subject shaded from the sun but lighted by a large area of clear sky.

wiltw · Nov 28, 2015

Just measured at Latitude 38 degrees, 11:10am on Pacific coast with a clear cloudless sky:
ISO 250, 1/250 f/16 +0.3EV using Minolta Autometer Vf with incident hemisphere...close enough to the traditional Rule of Thumb for me to trust the rule! I trust my incident meter.

Here is a reflected metering target, and the histogram of this shot, as exposed per my Minolta Autometer Vf reading:

ColColt · Nov 28, 2015

Onre-That's one stop more for all conditions than the insert I have(1987) except for the first one.

Sunny 16-Fact or Fiction?

Mark Crabtree

ColColt

Theo Sulphate

Sirius Glass

Gerald C Koch

OzJohn

Ian Grant

Mark Crabtree

markbarendt

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removed account4

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ColColt

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Mark Crabtree

Gerald C Koch

pentaxuser

markbarendt

MattKing

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Sunny 16-Fact or Fiction?

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