Sunny 16-Fact or Fiction?

ColColt · Nov 27, 2015

I've never been able to achieve the exposures Kodak claims in the old brochures that came with Tri-X They indicate 500 at f22 with this film on "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)". At best my exposures have ran 250 at f11 on a similar day as they describe. That's a two stop difference.

The only place in the brochure or inserts with this film that give 250 at f11 is on a "cloudy bright(No Shadows) day. Anyone have a similar experience or is it the sun here is different than where that information was taken?

JBrunner · Nov 27, 2015

ColColt said:
I've never been able to achieve the exposures Kodak claims in the old brochures that came with Tri-X They indicate 500 at f22 with this film on "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)". At best my exposures have ran 250 at f11 on a similar day as they describe. That's a two stop difference.

The only place in the brochure or inserts with this film that give 250 at f11 is on a "cloudy bright(No Shadows) day. Anyone have a similar experience or is it the sun here is different than where that information was taken?

Depends on your metering method and processing. Box speeds are based on averages and Kodaks processing. What are you basing your recommended exposure on, the negative that results from the exposures, or your own metering? How are your densities at box speed with your processing?

Not so much questions to answer for me, more like things to ponder. The answer lies within...

ic-racer · Nov 27, 2015

Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure, 1948, Jones and Condit

ColColt · Nov 27, 2015

My metering is based on taking an exposure on a bright, sunny day with sharp shadows and metering for a check on the grass out back(18% grey substitution metering) or for instance my neighbor's brick house out back that includes his house, some trees, grass and sky. I got those same exposures when I was downtown lately doing some street shooting.

If I might add, when I was shooting a lot of K64 I found the same thing with most exposures being 125 at f8.

Sirius Glass · Nov 27, 2015

I have used Sunny 16 for many years as a check on the light reading. I take light readings will very little or no sky, hence I am measuring the subject reflectance because the sky will be bright enough to throw off the exposure. However, when in northern latitudes such as Scotland, Sunny 16 needs to be replace with Sunny 11.

Most of the time I use ISO 400 film, C-41 and black & white, so I check my exposures on a sunny day at 1/500 second and f/16.

ColColt · Nov 27, 2015

I don't think under any circumstance I've been able to use 500 at f22 as Kodak indicates with 400 film. That information is from a film insert dated 9-87.

Jeff Bradford · Nov 27, 2015

In our Florida sunshine, 1/1000 @ f/22 is still too much light at mid-day unless I want to pull the entire roll. I had to buy a camera that goes up to 1/4000 when I moved here.

Ko.Fe. · Nov 27, 2015

If I rate film as 50, 100 or 200, it is very easy for me to get correct exposure while outdoors with S16, no meter.
With 400 and higher I'm lost and reading some weird documents doesn't help me at all

bernard_L · Nov 27, 2015

They indicate 500 at f22 with this film on "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)".

Are you sure?? according to all publications, and all the insides of film boxes (when they had exposure guides), Sunny 16, for "Bright or Hazy Sun" means shutter=ISO/ASA, and diaphragm = f/16 (whence the sunny 16 name).

You proclaim Sunny 22 and you complain that it does not work.

Besides, in practice, exposure for "Bright or Hazy Sun" is often closer to Sunny 11:
- greenery is darker than "standard subject"
- the sun is lower over the horizon in winter, and towards the end(s) of the day.

DannL. · Nov 27, 2015

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.pdf

. . . Says 500/16 for Bright or Hazy Sun, Distinct Shadows

Xmas · Nov 27, 2015

Pre 1961 Trix was 200 ASA.

So 1/250 /14 the ASA was changed for people who used photo electric meters not for the people who used tables or calculators...

ColColt · Nov 27, 2015

Are you sure?? according to all publications, and all the insides of film boxes (when they had exposure guides), Sunny 16, for "Bright or Hazy Sun" means shutter=ISO/ASA, and diaphragm = f/16 (whence the sunny 16 name).

The film box insert I had in reference to and stated the date shows 500 at f22 for Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows). That's what I went by. If it were true in 1997 the date on the pamphlet, it should be the same today. As everyone should remember, Kodak inserted that little fold up sheet in every box of film they sold at one time. To me, sunny 16 should be ASA speed and f16, in this case Tri-X at 400 and closest should be 500 at f16. That's what I'm getting at. My exposure meters show 250 at f11 for the instances of a Bright Sunny day, not 500 at f16 or f22

David Allen · Nov 27, 2015

I have never found Sunny 16 to be anywhere near to the correct exposure here in Europe.

However, I am usually making photographs of urban landscapes with relatively high subject brightness ranges where good shadow detail is important to how I want the images to look. There are also so many variables such as metering technique (I know the idea with Sunny 16 is that you do not need to meter), accuracy of shutter, accuracy of apertures, lens flare and internal camera flare, developing regime, etc, etc).

I recently did some tests with a new student using Tri-X in a Canon AE using manual. Previously he had been using the inbuilt meter, rating the film at 400 and developing in HC110 Dilution B for 3.75 minutes as per the Kodak data sheet that he had downloaded. What he was getting was very thin, flat and uneven negatives with no shadow detail. The tests identified that, with his equipment (including diffusion enlarger), he needed to be rating the film at iso200 and processing for 6.5 minutes at 20˚C. With this he was able to print a full tonal range print at #3 for 'normal scenes, #4 for grey and very overcast scenes and #2 for scenes with very high brightness range.

In the end, the only way to achieve what you want is to do some tests. Very boring yes but, once you have pinned the variables down, then you can concentrate on making images.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

Sirius Glass · Nov 27, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
I have used Sunny 16 for many years as a check on the light reading. I take light readings will very little or no sky, hence I am measuring the subject reflectance because the sky will be bright enough to throw off the exposure. However, when in northern latitudes such as Scotland, Sunny 16 needs to be replace with Sunny 11.

Most of the time I use ISO 400 film, C-41 and black & white, so I check my exposures on a sunny day at 1/500 second and f/16.

David Allen said:
I have never found Sunny 16 to be anywhere near to the correct exposure here in Europe.

David, in my not so humble opinion, northern Europe is too far north for Sunny 16 and Sunny 11 applies. For the OP see below:

faurefan · Nov 27, 2015

Sunny 16 has worked very well for me in New York in the spring and summer... and I interpret the rule literally, i.e. 16 and the inverse of the ISO so 1/400 (which some of my older cameras have - 1/500 is close enough on the modern ones) and f/16 in full bright sunlight. Then open up or slow down as light decreases. It's helped me to move past metering.

Things are more complex in late fall and with subjects in mixed sun and shade of course.

(Don't know why anyone would ever call for 1/500 and f/22 in bright or hazy sun... clearly not the rule!)

Sirius Glass · Nov 27, 2015

faurefan said:
Sunny 16 has worked very well for me in New York in the spring and summer... and I interpret the rule literally, i.e. 16 and the inverse of the ISO so 1/400 (which some of my older cameras have - 1/500 is close enough on the modern ones) and f/16 in full bright sunlight. Then open up or slow down as light decreases. It's helped me to move past metering.

Things are more complex in late fall and with subjects in mixed sun and shade of course.

(Don't know why anyone would ever call for 1/500 and f/22 in bright or hazy sun... clearly not the rule!)

Welcome to APUG

tessar · Nov 27, 2015

Sirius Glass is right. In southern Canada (same latitude as London), sunny 11 is about right, but in southern California, it's definitely sunny 16.

onre · Nov 27, 2015

I've had success with Sunny 16 while on vacation in Croatia. Here in Finland it's more like Sunny 11, if not Sunny 8.

Oh, and then there's the Finnish winter. It looks like this most of the time:

pentaxuser · Nov 27, 2015

I'd have thought that on bright full sun conditions which is what I thought sunny f16 was all about it would be right in Tennessee which is between latitude 34.5 and about 36. Sunny f11 works for me in the U.K. at latitude 53 in bright sunny days between 10am - 2:00pm in the summer months.

If you are nearly 20 degrees further south than I then f16 sounds about right but of course as David Allen has said it depends on a number of factors that may be peculiar to you,your camera and your processing.

Try his film speed test and see what it results in.

pentaxuser

removed account4 · Nov 27, 2015

colcolt

it works fo some and not for others .. it depends on where you might live.
I shoot sunny11 and have for years ...in us( northeast ) as well as in Europe ( summer and winter )

like with everything recommendations like sunny16 and developer times . are starting points ..

good luck!

RalphLambrecht · Nov 27, 2015

ColColt said:
I've never been able to achieve the exposures Kodak claims in the old brochures that came with Tri-X They indicate 500 at f22 with this film on "Bright or Hazy Sun(Distinct Shadows)". At best my exposures have ran 250 at f11 on a similar day as they describe. That's a two stop difference.

The only place in the brochure or inserts with this film that give 250 at f11 is on a "cloudy bright(No Shadows) day. Anyone have a similar experience or is it the sun here is different than where that information was taken?

sunny 16 is fact!

Theo Sulphate · Nov 27, 2015

ColColt,

In this APUG thread from a few months back, Ralph Lambrecht posted this handy exposure table:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

So, for a bright subject, f/22 would be appropriate. But for normal, then f/16 is better and f/11 for darker subjects. In your environs, maybe "sunny 11" is better.

adelorenzo · Nov 27, 2015

I live North of 60 and I use Sunny 16 all the time, it works just dandy. In the summer we have endless hours of sunlight and in the winter the sun reflects off the snow there is no lack of sunlight.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 27, 2015

Jeff Bradford said:
In our Florida sunshine, 1/1000 @ f/22 is still too much light at mid-day unless I want to pull the entire roll. I had to buy a camera that goes up to 1/4000 when I moved here.

For me in Florida, sunnt 16 works well;In Germany it was more like cloudy8

ColColt · Nov 27, 2015

I don't know guys. I'm just trying to get a handle on this. I do know that if I expose at 500 at f16 I'm going to get some terribly underexposed thin negatives with no shadow detail.

Sunny 16-Fact or Fiction?

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