Succumbed to the bulk loader thread

tokam · Dec 12, 2021

Well done moose22, I'm still using a Telesar bulk loader that I bought new in around 1980. It has never let me down and there is nothing in the film path to scratch the film during operation.

I can't say I'm overly impressed with the results from your ancient 'Tri-X'. When I restarted shooting black and white in 2012 my bulk loader was still half full of Ilford FP4 which expired in 1992. I also had a few reloaded cassettes of TMax 400 that expired in 1989. Bearing in mind the age of the film I chose to process them in HC-110. Pretty miserable results with large grain and heavy base fogging. A lot of the problems were probably due to storage conditions and I had also moved house a number of times in the 1990's. I blame the heat of the Australian summer.

I find it hard enough to get good results from 35mm negs without the handicap of degraded film stock of unknown age and provenance. If the budget is tight then treat yourself to some Kentmere , Foma or one of the B&W movie films. You may never want to go back and pay the somewhat onerous Kodak tax again.

Moose22 · Dec 12, 2021

tokam said:
I can't say I'm overly impressed with the results from your ancient 'Tri-X.

Oh, neither am I, unless I temper my expectations. Judging by the font on the box, this is a Revenge of the Nerds era device. That film might have been in there 30 years for all I know, and I think it's interesting that it works at all.

This experimenting is serving only a couple of purposes for me.

I have some FP4 and HP5 on the way, but they're not here yet. Same with my soviet cassettes from the ebay Ukrainian seller. But I'm excited to get rolling and impatient so the first purpose is to test carts (taping to old film is OK, the snap caps are good, the arista plastic ones are literally unusable - the felt sheds profusely and is guaranteed to leave craploads of fuzzy fibers in your camera and on your film) then learn how to roll, get a sort of process and flow going. Super comfortable with all that now. And the loader works perfectly, one click per frame, really easy once I got good at taping.

The second purpose is to practice developing, which I've just started this autumn. Short rolls, silly experiments, nothing that matters. I have to practice to get better at loading reels, handling film, and just seat the processes and that only comes with doing. It is all way easier now than it was 5 times ago. I'll never use 60 rolls worth of xtol in 6 months, so it's essentially no cost other than my time.

So - free film! I'm doing my learning while not wasting anything of quality or endangering any rolls I actually care about. That last 10 or 15 meters can be test strips like an earlier poster suggested.

MattKing · Dec 12, 2021

Moose22 said:
I just photographed my fist with 1 finger for 100 and 2 fingers for 200 and none for 50.

Finger works too.
Although in years to come you may find yourself looking at the negatives and asking yourself: "who was I giving the finger to, and why?"

lantau · Dec 12, 2021

I have what appears to be the exact same bulk loader. It has no felt, which means a short bit of film still inside will be fogged. I have to open it in darkness to attach the film to the 3-5 mm of film sticking out of the old cartridge. Not too pleasant. I'm using a film retriever and can recycle the cartridges from films I have developed. I do have a supply of around 20 loadable metal cartridges, from when Foto Impex still sold them.

The (computerised, haha) counter is nice. But only if you roll 36 exposures, only. You can't reset the cartridge counter (to my knowledge, I didn't get a box and manual) without affecting the bulk counter.

I also have a tear drop shaped loader, Watson type?. Less popular here, but IMHO better than this one. I can attach the film stub from the cartridge visually in full light with the film gate closed and only a few mm of exposed bulk film sticking out of the loader. Then turn off the light, open the gate, move the cartridge into its place (which already pulls film through the gate), close the loader, turn on the light and start spooling. The close the gate, open the loader in full light and cut the film close to the gate.

In both cases you get no or minimum exposure on the last frame of the roll.

Donald Qualls · Dec 13, 2021

Moose22 said:
So, @Donald Qualls , when you say "downrate" to compensate, do you mean shot at 100 then dev as though I shot at 400? (6:45 or 7min in X-tol) or shoot at 100 dev at 100 (5:30 in xtol)? I'm assuming the former.

I mean expose at lower than "new film" speed and then develop normally for the film type -- in your case, expose at EI 200 or 100 and develop (ideally using old Tri-X data, say from the Wayback Machine's stored version of the MDC).

Bronson Dugnutt · Dec 13, 2021

My only bulk loader, an 'AP' branded model, is currently housing about 50' of Delta 400. There's a can of Vision3 50D in waiting, but I'm at capacity on cassettes currently.

Moose22 said:
The second purpose is to practice developing, which I've just started this autumn. Short rolls, silly experiments, nothing that matters.

Ditto; this is my first encounter with Delta 400 and I probably never would have used it if it had not been available relatively inexpensively in bulk. I ran some short loads through various developers (xtol, rodinal, pyro) and then on a lark tried rating at 100 and reversal processing in D-19. The final positives aren't perfect in terms of contrast but I'm pleasantly surprised they look pretty good on a lightbox. Excellent detail and a very compact grain structure wasn't what I was expecting from a first attempt. Hooray for bulk experimentation.

D850, el-Nikkor 80mm on tubes, AWB using white LED

D850, 4x objective + 2x F mount adapter, AWB using incandescent lamp

Moose22 · Dec 16, 2021

lantau said:
I have what appears to be the exact same bulk loader. It has no felt, which means a short bit of film still inside will be fogged. I have to open it in darkness to attach the film to the 3-5 mm of film sticking out of the old cartridge. Not too pleasant. I'm using a film retriever and can recycle the cartridges from films I have developed. I do have a supply of around 20 loadable metal cartridges, from when Foto Impex still sold them.

So, one of the reasons the square style is attractive over my Alden is, theoretically, that you lose less of the end of the roll because you don't have to pull as long a leader out of the light trap. Are you saying I'm going to lose that much anyway? Or more? Kind of a bummer.

I got sick of playing with that ancient tri-x and yanked the last 50 feet out. It's test strips now. So now I see the inside of this computerized thing. Looking at the path I can see about the length of the alden trailor might be exposed, so I guess that's what you say is fogging. Taping to the new cassette in total darkness is... well, it kind of ruins the "daylight" part of a daylight film loader.

Seems like a good candidate for a felt light trap, though. You could just put some felt top and bottom just on the inside of the throat and reduce most of that light piping. Maybe I'll experiment one day.

The (computerised, haha) counter is nice. But only if you roll 36 exposures, only. You can't reset the cartridge counter (to my knowledge, I didn't get a box and manual) without affecting the bulk counter.

On mine you definitely CAN reset it. Just push the dial for the remaining film length in and it disengages from the frame counter, so you can rotate the frame counter back to zero for the next roll. Release the bulk film dial so it pops up and it will start moving again with the frame counter. Maybe that's the improvement that brought the "new improved model" sticker that's on the box.

Still burning through the FP4 rolls I have on hand from before I got this wild hair. A couple more and I'll start rolling film for reals, though I might use the Alden first. I have HP5 here, too, but I have 7 or 8 rolls of that already. I stocked up on sveral stocks when the higher prices were announced... Geez I have a lot of film in my fridge now. I need to shoot more.

lantau · Dec 17, 2021

Moose22 said:
So, one of the reasons the square style is attractive over my Alden is, theoretically, that you lose less of the end of the roll because you don't have to pull as long a leader out of the light trap. Are you saying I'm going to lose that much anyway? Or more? Kind of a bummer.

Depending on the light you are working in, it will not fog as much as the Alden type does. I don't have recent experience, because I attach in the dark, but I think an inch is the most you should expect. It is more like streaks of fogging going as far as that. The felt lined versions, or the alden with its mechanical gate have a more or less sharp line, where fogging ends.

With the Alden type I can attach in the light and go dark only to open the gate, place the cartridge into its place for cranking and close the lid. Light back on. People don't like it because it wastes film if you use it according to the manual. But with this very minor inconvenience taken, it becomes the better device. The closed gate holds the film in place. This makes it so much easier to tape with very little film required.

I got sick of playing with that ancient tri-x and yanked the last 50 feet out. It's test strips now. So now I see the inside of this computerized thing. Looking at the path I can see about the length of the alden trailor might be exposed, so I guess that's what you say is fogging. Taping to the new cassette in total darkness is... well, it kind of ruins the "daylight" part of a daylight film loader.

Seems like a good candidate for a felt light trap, though. You could just put some felt top and bottom just on the inside of the throat and reduce most of that light piping. Maybe I'll experiment one day.

It's not fun with this type loader, but you can still crank while seeing how much goes onto the roll. That is worth something. Don't forget to cut the film and close the lid, again, in the dark.

On mine you definitely CAN reset it. Just push the dial for the remaining film length in and it disengages from the frame counter, so you can rotate the frame counter back to zero for the next roll. Release the bulk film dial so it pops up and it will start moving again with the frame counter. Maybe that's the improvement that brought the "new improved model" sticker that's on the box.

Still burning through the FP4 rolls I have on hand from before I got this wild hair. A couple more and I'll start rolling film for reals, though I might use the Alden first. I have HP5 here, too, but I have 7 or 8 rolls of that already. I stocked up on sveral stocks when the higher prices were announced... Geez I have a lot of film in my fridge now. I need to shoot more.

I checked mine. I knew that one dial can be pushed in. But it doesn't do so evenly. On the first try the two dials were still coupled. That is probably why I didn't find out on my own. But upon playing around with the way I'm pushing down I managed to uncouple the mechanism. Thanks a lot for the hint!!

I only bulk load the bread and butter films. I.e. FP4 (Silvermax when it was still available in bulk) and HP5. Also EK Vision3 films, but I haven't done anything with those in quite a while. I need to find time for those, again. But I still use lots of other films in single rolls. My spreadsheet tells me I currently have 168 rolls of 35mm film. 37 different types. B/W, E6 , C41 and ECN2. 12 rolls are bulk loaded, half of that Vision3. I replenish as I go, both bulk loaded and single rolls.

Moose22 · Dec 17, 2021

lantau said:
wn. But upon playing around with the way I'm pushing down I managed to uncouple the mechanism. Thanks a lot for the hint!!

I only bulk load the bread and butter films. I.e. FP4 (Silvermax when it was still available in bulk) and HP5. Also EK Vision3 films, but I haven't done anything with those in quite a while. I need to find time for those, again. But I still use lots of other films in single rolls. My spreadsheet tells me I currently have 168 rolls of 35mm film. 37 different types. B/W, E6 , C41 and ECN2. 12 rolls are bulk loaded, half of that Vision3. I replenish as I go, both bulk loaded and single rolls.

I played with it some more and it's still... ungood at keeping track of length. It only seems to increment the remaining length dial once per rotation of the frame counter, so if I do a 12 roll then reset it it won't have moved the remaining length dial at all. Oh well! Mostly I care about the count on the roll, and I might be able to use a dark bag or something to save the last two shots on a roll. I suppose I should practice taping film to rolls in the dark to learn by feel, and for the alden practice setting the roll in place and closing the gate by feel. That burnt out tri-x is actually great for practicing these actions!

I think I'll be rolling as I go, largely because my goal is experimenting with short rolls. So if I want to try something I'll roll a couple of rolls for that specific experiment. I intend FP4 and HP5, which I got for $85 a roll so an OK price difference to retail. Bread and butter films is an apt description. I really like FP4 character in D76 and D96, HP5 is low enough contrast to be pushed... I'm excited to experiment with them in the xtol.

I also bought what I think is the last roll of Delta 400 at $89 a roll, but I have a crapload of Tri-X and T-Max in the fridge right now so I'll just leave that in the cold storage. I got it because I'm pretty sure all of Ilford's bulk rolls are going to go up $15-20 as soon as retailers have to restock and Tri-X and Tmax have gone way up in price, so might as well. Maybe some FOMO, by the summer bulk rolls could be $10 more again.

Donald Qualls · Dec 17, 2021

Moose22 said:
I think I'll be rolling as I go, largely because my goal is experimenting with short rolls.

This is one of the main things bulk loading is good for. The others are saving a little each roll even at full length (I bought .EDU Ultra 400 for $51 a bulk roll, fills 17-ish cassettes, which would cost over $100 to buy factory rolled),and using films that aren't readily available in cassettes (cine films, for instance, including duplicating and release positive films like the ORWO DN21 -- ISO 13 -- that I have in one loader for when I want really fine grain and it's sunny).

abruzzi · Dec 17, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
This is one of the main things bulk loading is good for. The others are saving a little each roll even at full length (I bought .EDU Ultra 400 for $51 a bulk roll, fills 17-ish cassettes, which would cost over $100 to buy factory rolled),and using films that aren't readily available in cassettes (cine films, for instance, including duplicating and release positive films like the ORWO DN21 -- ISO 13 -- that I have in one loader for when I want really fine grain and it's sunny).

Back when I was buying 35mm cameras, I would always start the new camera out with an approximately 12 exposure roll. I'd shoot at the top two shutter speeds several times, then I'd do a series of about six identical shots, but with different shutter/aperture pairs.

Developing this would tell me two things--the top speed shots would make sure that the shutter didn't cap by looking for a dark edge. And the six shots with with different shutter speeds, but the same EV would tell me shutter consistancy, at least along the range of speeds I tried by looking to see if each frame was similarly exposed.

When I see new film photographers buying old cameras, sending the film off to be developed, my first thought is it would be so much easier (and cheaper) for them to debug if they has very short rolls, and could develop themselves.

tokam · Dec 18, 2021

abruzzi said:
Back when I was buying 35mm cameras, I would always start the new camera out with an approximately 12 exposure roll. I'd shoot at the top two shutter speeds several times, then I'd do a series of about six identical shots, but with different shutter/aperture pairs.

Developing this would tell me two things--the top speed shots would make sure that the shutter didn't cap by looking for a dark edge. And the six shots with with different shutter speeds, but the same EV would tell me shutter consistancy, at least along the range of speeds I tried by looking to see if each frame was similarly exposed.

+1

I do the same. If I'm testing with a faster film, ISO 400, then I'll also do a few shots with yellow / orange and ND filters, sometimes stacked, to allow use of slower shutter speeds. At this point I'm not so much concerned with image quality with the stacked filters but I want to see consistent density in the negatives.

wjlapier · Dec 18, 2021

My bulk loader is a Watson I think—I’m away from it now. It has expired 1992 TriX400 I’ve shot at ISO100 with pretty good results. Probably over 80 ft still in it.

I went on a buying spree lately partly to stock up because of crazy prices, but also because I wanted to faze out my color ( which has gotten expensive to shoot casually ). I now have about 1200ft of film in the freezer. Mostly Rollei and Agfa mixed with a couple of boxes of TriX400 and Ilford Pan F 50.

I’ll be on the outlook for a few more loaders.

Speaking of loading, I’m not sure why this didn’t occur to me before. Why not reload with commercial metal canisters that you leave a small leader to pull new film into it. I tried this yesterday and it worked perfectly. I have some mystery film canisters I’m thinking of pulling the film out without breaking the seals on the end, then reload with whatever I decide. Anyone else do this? Beside the DX code, anything else to be aware of?

pentaxuser · Dec 18, 2021

wjlapier said:
Speaking of loading, I’m not sure why this didn’t occur to me before. Why not reload with commercial metal canisters that you leave a small leader to pull new film into it. I tried this yesterday and it worked perfectly. Beside the DX code, anything else to be aware of?

Yes I do that and it has always worked perfectly for me. The DX code is only a problem if you don't have a range of commercial cassettes that match all your ISO bulk rolls and then only if there is no way of overriding the code via a film speed dial that most cameras have

I can't think of any other drawbacks with commercial cassettes other than the obvious one of eventually wearing the felt light trap away

pentaxuser

Moose22 · Dec 18, 2021

wjlapier said:
Speaking of loading, I’m not sure why this didn’t occur to me before. Why not reload with commercial metal canisters that you leave a small leader to pull new film into it. I tried this yesterday and it worked perfectly. I have some mystery film canisters I’m thinking of pulling the film out without breaking the seals on the end, then reload with whatever I decide. Anyone else do this? Beside the DX code, anything else to be aware of?

Lots of people do this.

I've been saving my film cassettes since I started thinking about bulk loading, but I already tossed a bunch beforehand. Now I fish out leader with a tool I bought on the amazon for $6 and, frankly, I like loading on my developing reels this way even better than popping the end off with the bottle opener. I can prep the leader ahead of time instead of in the dark, the cassette keeps everything in line and I never touch the emulsion on accident. It's all super easy.

My only problem is, if I want to load a bunch, I don't have very many empties on hand. I just started saving them. So I bought a sixer of snap caps on ebay and a bunch of the ukranian seller's cassettes so I have enough that I could roll off a couple dozen if I so desired.

I also tried the Arista plastic empties -- STAY AWAY. Not only are the unusable with all the crap coming off the disintegrating felt, Freestyle didn't even offer a refund when I emailed them. They're about as terrible an option as you could ask for.

Randy Stewart · May 31, 2022

madNbad said:
The center shaft is there and the cover is secure, the only thing missing is the piece that is fitted to the center of the bulk roll of film, then slips over the shaft to keep the film from wandering around the chamber.

View attachment 292681

From the picture, I think yours is complete. There is no additional part or roller which fits on the center post inside the chamber. The metal post you see in the center of the chamber is all there is. The bulk film roll is wrapped on a plastic center core which fits down over the post, then you put on the top and tighten its center screw down onto the threaded end of the post to hold the thing together with the film inside. The lid is rotated on the post to open and close the light trap where the film exits to the cartridge. That is at about 4 o'clock in your photo. There should be a small crank to engage and wind on the cartridge, located on the back side from this photo. Check one of the many YT videos on the "how to use" of this equipment.

Donald Qualls · Jun 1, 2022

Randy Stewart said:
The bulk film roll is wrapped on a plastic center core which fits down over the post,

If you buy rerolled movie film, however (5222 and DN21, in my experience so far), it's likely it won't have the core. The loader will still work, but the threaded stud will scratch hell out of the last few frames on the bulk roll...

abruzzi · Jun 1, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
If you buy rerolled movie film, however (5222 and DN21, in my experience so far), it's likely it won't have the core. The loader will still work, but the threaded stud will scratch hell out of the last few frames on the bulk roll...

most of the bulk rolls I've shot didn't have cores, but most of my bulk rolls were cheaper brands--lots of Ultrafine Extreme, Foma, etc. Fortunately, due to the direction of loading, these last few inches that get scrached up actually become the leader of the last roll you load, so it has never been a problem for me.

Donald Qualls · Jun 1, 2022

abruzzi said:
Fortunately, due to the direction of loading, these last few inches that get scrached up actually become the leader of the last roll you load, so it has never been a problem for me.

Seems convenient. I haven't gotten one of those to the end of the roll yet, so I guess I'll see how that works out in a few months to a couple years...

madNbad · Jun 1, 2022

Photo Warehouse ships their 5222 without a core or a spool. Found some cores on Ebay and retooled it on to one of those. The other thing I tried was hundred foot microfilm reels. You have to strip off the old microfilm but the reel is easy to load, even by hand in a dark bag.

Donald Qualls · Jun 1, 2022

madNbad said:
Photo Warehouse ships their 5222 without a core or a spool.

Yep. I have a spare core, but couldn't get it into the roll as received and really didn't want to unroll a hundred feet of film in the dark, even just from the roll as received to the core. Too many visions of film all over the darkroom floor racing through my head...

madNbad · Jun 1, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Yep. I have a spare core, but couldn't get it into the roll as received and really didn't want to unroll a hundred feet of film in the dark, even just from the roll as received to the core. Too many visions of film all over the darkroom floor racing through my head...

It's not too difficult working with a fresh roll. The biggest challenge is keeping it from unrolling. After the 5222 is gone, I'll probably stick with Tri-X, at least that comes with a core.

Donald Qualls · Jun 2, 2022

I'm hoping to convince my slicer software and 3D printer to allow me to print a loader that takes a 400 foot spool so I can order 5222 and Ektachrome direct from Kodak.

Moose22 · Jun 2, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
I'm hoping to convince my slicer software and 3D printer to allow me to print a loader that takes a 400 foot spool so I can order 5222 and Ektachrome direct from Kodak.

THAT would be an interesting project. Post pics if you ever pull it off, I'd love to see what you came up with.

I've only been dealing with the ilford 100' rolls, but if you CAN get bulk extachrome, and you can make a bulk loader work, why the heck not?

Donald Qualls · Jun 2, 2022

I've already downloaded the files for the 400' loader, but the size barely fits the bed of my Ender 3 and I have to adjust some settings to get the slicer to produce output). And then I have to complete an upgrade to the printer that's been hanging fire since last year.

On of the items that's had a shortage recently is tuits, especially the round variety...

Succumbed to the bulk loader thread

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