Stop Bath.. How important?

bill schwab

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I'm with Jason on this. I would also not recommend skipping a stop bath when printing, especially when doing large prints.

Can you use your 3 trays in the darkroom for dev -> stop -> 1st fix and then go outside your darkroom for the 2nd fix and wash? I used to do this when I had limited space and had no problems. I would even use floor space when I didn't have the surface area.
 

jim appleyard

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I'll third the "no stop" method. There are globs of threads about the pro & cons of using a stop bath. It seems to be a personal matter.
 

JustDave

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Why would you have a 2nd fix?
 

jim appleyard

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JustDave said:
Why would you have a 2nd fix?
Click to expand...

The first fix removes the unexposed silver. The second fix removes the by-products of the first fix. At least that what it is in a nutshell. There are other many detailed (and heated) threads on the merits of single and two-bath fixing methods. A search will turn up plenty to read.
 

George Collier

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About skipping the stop - I have seen stains result a number of times over the years (mostly in community labs) from skipping a fix, at least when using an acid fix, which seems to be what you are using. The first time was when I was in the Army, the stains were a pinkish - brown, using Dektol straight into the regular Kodak powder fix. I was told by a lab technician years later that even using plain water as a stop will risk the same stains, with an acid fix.
You might be better off using an alkaline fix, like TF-4, with a second bath, and then pitching at least the first one when finished.
If you search the threads for TF-4, you'll find info on it.
 

bill schwab

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JustDave said:
Why would you have a 2nd fix?
Click to expand...
Basically what Jim said. When working with such large prints you are moving a lot of chemistry from tray to tray on that print no matter how much you may let it drain. The second fix just ends up being less contaminated than the first. When done printing, move your second fix to the first position and pour the old 1st fix into the reclaimation device. Then mix a new, uncontaminated fix to use as the second.

Also as Jim says, I have heard this discussion gets heated, but I have no dog in that fight. I just do what I do and it works for me.
 

Steve Smith

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What about making something to stack your trays vertically? It would save bench space.


Steve.
 

Martin Aislabie

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Steve, thanks, I've thought of that but I have cupboards above the work surface so I am squeezed for height too - particularly with big paper sizes - they take up lots of room being transfered from one tray to another

Martin
 

Martin Aislabie

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Thanks for the suggestion Bill - this might work

Dev > Stop > 1st Fix > empty tray > kitchen > 2nd Fix > Rinse > HCA > Washer

I will have to give a dry run to see if I can manoeuvre a large empty tray containing a wet print around the house without leaving a trail of fixer everywhere

My long suffering wife would have a severe sense of humour failure

Martin
 

Vaughn

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One other possibility...how easy is it for you to pour out one of those big trays? One could be develop, then go into the stop bath...then pour the stop bath out into a wide-mouthed gallon container (keeping the print in the tray)...perhaps a quick rinse with water...then pour in the fixer. You could even do a second fix bath the same way.

Not exactly easy to do with such large trays, but keeping the volume of stop bath to a minimum would help.

Vaughn
 

MattKing

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Do I assume correctly that you are using fibre based paper?

If it is RC, tubes might help.

Matt
 

jmcd

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Just as a note, Aaron Siskind skipped stop bath when making large prints, because it made it possible to do what he wanted in the space he had.

Never let the ideal stand in the way of art.
 

Erik L

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Martin, If you are developing to completion you might look at getting a pvc pipe of appropriate size with end caps and you can develop and stop in the pipe and then fix in the trays. Just a thought
erik
 

Martin Aislabie

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Vaughn, I am considering doing just that but only for the second half of the process (in the kitchen)

I don't have the space to pour out 20x24 trays in the darkroom, but into wide mouthed jugs in the kitchen sink should be more do-able.

If I keep the liquid volumes down, it shouldn't slosh round the tray too uncontrollably as I try to lift the tray up to pour.

Thanks

Martin
 

lynettemax

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Water... used as Stop bath?

Hey all,
Today I went to a local photography store that rents darkroom time. I took a look inside to see what they had to offer before renting time. I noticed that they did not have any stop bath for developing film. I asked a worker there and she said that they used water... Will this have any negative effects on my film? Or is this not the big deal i thought it would be?

Oh and, if this is in the wrong section please forgive me

Thanks everyone!
Lynette
 

ZorkiKat

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Water in this case won't be stop bath. It's more of a RINSE. Water does not neutralise the developer - or stop its activity, hence the name "stop". Water will just rinse the developer away and leave less in the film before it goes into the fixer. The developer will continue to act, though it would probably create any significant effect if the fixer is acid enough (assuming that it's the type used) and acts quick enough the undeveloped halide before the remaining, and yet to be neutralised, developer has the chance to work on them.

You should do the rinses quickly. Two or three if possible. That's to remove as much residual developer, and to weaken its alkalinity, as possible. A stagnant, extended rinse in an unchanged bath of water can lead to added silver densities. Think of the principle behind the dev-water-dev-water divided development procedures.

The alkaline carry over will make the fixer's life shorter. Not so much an issue with rented darkrooms where the chemicals are likely flushed down after each use.
 

fotch

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Lynette, it depends on who you want to believe. The film designers, engineers, and manufacturers all recommend using a stop bath with both paper and film. The following was copied from Ilford site. Kodak has something similar.

"Stop bath
After development, rinse prints in an acid stop bath, such as ILFOSTOP or ILFOSTOP PRO.
A stop bath stops development immediately, reduces the risk of staining and will extend the life of the fixer bath. The use of a stop bath is strongly recommended.

Ilford ILFOSTOP stop bath brings develpment to an end, and prolongs the life of the fixer. Works quickly."
 

Steve Smith

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fotch said:
After development, rinse prints in an acid stop bath, such as ILFOSTOP or ILFOSTOP PRO.
Click to expand...

A cynical person might suggest that it was in Iford's interest to sell Ilford stop bath!

My view is that it is a good idea to use a stop for prints to keep the fixer bath working longer and it is also a good idea to use it for film if you plan to re-use the fixer. If you use your fixer once then discard it though, the stop bath is of little (if any) benefit.


Steve.
 

BirgerA

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I've used both water, citric acid (smells less) or a weak solution of fixer as stop.

I have not noticed any difference in the end result from any of the approaches used, but I have to admit that I have not done any real/proper/scientific comparison.

The main purpose is as stated above that you remove developer before using the ordinary fixer.

Best regards

Birger A.
 

fotch

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Well, a stupid cynical person. There is no way for the film companies to insure that they will buy Ilford or Kodak Stop bath, and its not exactly a big market. I suppose that same cynical person would use really cheap crappy film, based on their logic.:rolleyes:
 

Steve Smith

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fotch said:
Well, a stupid cynical person. There is no way for the film companies to insure that they will buy Ilford or Kodak Stop bath, and its not exactly a big market.
Click to expand...

I was hoping that my inclusion of an exclamation mark would show my comment to be in jest. I don't use those silly smiley face thingies. Perhaps I should.


Steve.
 
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