Stop Bath.. How important?

[MattKing]

For 64L of working solution?

Oops - closer to 32 litres (not 64 litres) of working solution.
It actually is 32 US quarts, but it will work just as well if you dilute it that extra little amount to 32 litres.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The whole point of the indicator in Indicator Stop Bath is so you can tell at a glance (in the storage bottle, if clear(ish) or in the graduate before pouring into the tank or tray) that the stop bath is still yellow (= good). If you're going to toss your stop bath after each used, you don't gain anything from the bromocresol purple (it's photographically inactive) and further don't need to have even as much as 2% acetic acid -- 1% should be plenty, and 1/2% might be okay. Buy the cheapest distilled white vinegar you can find, and dilute it 1+4 to make 1% acetic acid solution, you've got an adequate one-shot stop bath.

For those of us who are willing to store our stop bath and watch for the indicator to change or get pale, we get a couple dozen rolls per liter mixed per Kodak instructions -- the indicator thus making Indicator Stop Bath the cheapest stop bath (comparable to plain tap water for many folks who pay for city water). I just discarded my old stop bath and mixed fresh a couple weeks ago -- that two liters had been used for about fifteen rolls since I got it out of a twelve year storage and who knows how many before that. As a confirmed cheapskate, I'm a firm believer in commercial Indicator Stop Bath (though I also have some 75% acetic acid and a small bottle of bromocresol purple indicator that I think was comparable in final cost, given that I'll dilute that acid about 1+36 or so to get working strength).

But we all know that stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

But we all know that stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive!

It is when you're on a school budget

 

[JBrunner]

I don't get it. I solved this problem for all you people 16 years ago

 

[MattKing]

“A stop is just the start of something else.”

Or if you prefer:

 

[SchwinnParamount]

The whole point of the indicator in Indicator Stop Bath is so you can tell at a glance (in the storage bottle, if clear(ish) or in the graduate before pouring into the tank or tray) that the stop bath is still yellow (= good). If you're going to toss your stop bath after each used, you don't gain anything from the bromocresol purple (it's photographically inactive) and further don't need to have even as much as 2% acetic acid -- 1% should be plenty, and 1/2% might be okay. Buy the cheapest distilled white vinegar you can find, and dilute it 1+4 to make 1% acetic acid solution, you've got an adequate one-shot stop bath.

For those of us who are willing to store our stop bath and watch for the indicator to change or get pale, we get a couple dozen rolls per liter mixed per Kodak instructions -- the indicator thus making Indicator Stop Bath the cheapest stop bath (comparable to plain tap water for many folks who pay for city water). I just discarded my old stop bath and mixed fresh a couple weeks ago -- that two liters had been used for about fifteen rolls since I got it out of a twelve year storage and who knows how many before that. As a confirmed cheapskate, I'm a firm believer in commercial Indicator Stop Bath (though I also have some 75% acetic acid and a small bottle of bromocresol purple indicator that I think was comparable in final cost, given that I'll dilute that acid about 1+36 or so to get working strength).

Hi Donald, Thank you for the perspective. I have been a bit spoiled in my splurging on the occasional (Ok, once every 5 years) bottle of stop bath. But I am one photographer who may not produce the volume of film that most photographers do... let alone a classroom full of photographers. And no, NOT tongue in cheek. I genuinely appreciate your perspective.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

I don't get it. I solved this problem for all you people 16 years ago

I remember your solution, Jay Brunner. That's why I kept my APUG subscription. God bless you...

What was your solution, again?

 

[SchwinnParamount]

“A stop is just the start of something else.”

Ooh shoot. that's so zen.

I am now officially guilty of juicing my own thread. I should stop posting and let thread evolution take its course.

 

[Donald Qualls]

But we all know that stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive!

It is when you're on a school budget

I remember well when up-front cost was much more of a concern than unit cost -- the days when I couldn't have bought, say, 200 gallons of gasoline ahead even if it saved me forty or fifty cents a gallon, or when ten dollars for enough stop bath concentrate to last several years meant a dent in my ramen and mac&cheese supply compared to just enough white vinegar to make up a jug of stop bath. For those in that state, I'd suggest sticking with tap water. Most such aren't paying their own water bills anyway, and the amount of extra water in processing film vs. reusable stop bath is insignificant (I can process film with one-shot developer and an Ilford wash in about a gallon for a roll; water stop bath adds a quart; neither one will be visible on most water bills anyway). But for those interested in controlling their annual total spending on photography, and who are already using the least costly film and paper available for most purposes, reusing stop and fixer and replenishing developer are the way to go.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I remember well when up-front cost was much more of a concern than unit cost -- the days when I couldn't have bought, say, 200 gallons of gasoline ahead even if it saved me forty or fifty cents a gallon, or when ten dollars for enough stop bath concentrate to last several years meant a dent in my ramen and mac&cheese supply compared to just enough white vinegar to make up a jug of stop bath. For those in that state, I'd suggest sticking with tap water. Most such aren't paying their own water bills anyway, and the amount of extra water in processing film vs. reusable stop bath is insignificant (I can process film with one-shot developer and an Ilford wash in about a gallon for a roll; water stop bath adds a quart; neither one will be visible on most water bills anyway). But for those interested in controlling their annual total spending on photography, and who are already using the least costly film and paper available for most purposes, reusing stop and fixer and replenishing developer are the way to go.

So you would rather risk your students' negatives and prints, because they did not know that the stop bath was expired? Yes, that justifies throwing out all logic because we all know just how damned expensive stop bath with indicator is. Gee if the cost of stop bath is going to destroy the economy of the known world, maybe photography is something you should not do.

 

[Donald Qualls]

So you would rather risk your students' negatives and prints, because they did not know that the stop bath was expired? Yes, that justifies throwing out all logic because we all know just how damned expensive stop bath with indicator is. Gee if the cost of stop bath is going to destroy the economy of the known world, maybe photography is something you should not do.

No, "For those in that state, I'd suggest sticking with tap water. " Tap water is a fairly poor alternative to stop bath, but if you use the same method all the time, you'll get consistent results -- which would not happen if your stop bath without indicator rose in pH above around 7.5. Or one could use white vinegar diluted 1+4 (half the strength of commercial stop bath mixed to instructions) to 1+9 (1/4 commercial working solution strength) as a one-shot, which will work and will stop ten or so rolls of 35mm for a couple bucks. False economy is sometimes the only kind you can afford (and students in this financial condition are likely to be using dodgy cameras and the cheapest film and paper they can find, too).

Of course, if the school darkroom is supplying the developer, stop bath, and fixer, then the student is off the hook (presuming someone paid their lab fee at tuition time).

I'm very serious about the cost of a bottle of stop bath concentrate affecting one's food budget, for some students -- so apparently those students should drop out of college and move back into Mom's basement, rather than learning analog photography, because nothing you can learn could possibly be worth having to make some hard choices.

 

[Sirius Glass]

No, "For those in that state, I'd suggest sticking with tap water. " Tap water is a fairly poor alternative to stop bath, but if you use the same method all the time, you'll get consistent results -- which would not happen if your stop bath without indicator rose in pH above around 7.5. Or one could use white vinegar diluted 1+4 (half the strength of commercial stop bath mixed to instructions) to 1+9 (1/4 commercial working solution strength) as a one-shot, which will work and will stop ten or so rolls of 35mm for a couple bucks. False economy is sometimes the only kind you can afford (and students in this financial condition are likely to be using dodgy cameras and the cheapest film and paper they can find, too).

Of course, if the school darkroom is supplying the developer, stop bath, and fixer, then the student is off the hook (presuming someone paid their lab fee at tuition time).

I'm very serious about the cost of a bottle of stop bath concentrate affecting one's food budget, for some students -- so apparently those students should drop out of college and move back into Mom's basement, rather than learning analog photography, because nothing you can learn could possibly be worth having to make some hard choices.

Oh I agree the cost of stop bath can drive people to get in bread lines.

 

[MattKing]

A running water wash for a minute is a reasonably effective stop bath.
And the water expense probably comes from a different budget line than the photography teacher's supplies budget - a major consideration in the education world.
The problem, of course, is that if the students aren't patient, and don't give the film the whole minute in the wash, they may end up decreasing the life of the fixer, which also costs money from that supplies budget.
What is Andrew to do!?

 

[cliveh]

Stop bath should do what it's name implies, stop development. Water just slows it down.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Stop bath should do what it's name implies, stop development. Water just slows it down.

Do not confuse this with facts. This is a religious argument.

 

[MattKing]

Stop bath should do what it's name implies, stop development. Water just slows it down.

But it can also wash out most of the developer in the emulsion, which protects the fixer.

 

[cliveh]

But it can also wash out most of the developer in the emulsion, which protects the fixer.

Are you talking about stop bath or water? If water, it does not protect an acid fixer as well as an acid stop bath.

 

[MattKing]

Are you talking about stop bath or water? If water, it does not protect an acid fixer as well as an acid stop bath.

No - but the difference with film is marginal, IF there is sufficient time, and sufficient flow.
I personally recommend an acid stop bath. There are, however, circumstances where the availability and other advantages of a properly implemented running water wash in place of an acid stop make practical sense.

 

[john_s]

Stop bath should do what it's name implies, stop development. Water just slows it down.

Congratulations Clive on submitting post #1000!

 

[Donald Qualls]

Oh I agree the cost of stop bath can drive people to get in bread lines.

Do you really expect us to believe you were so silver-spoon that you never had to worry about money when you were in college? Okay, if you say so. I was talking about student budgets, not the department (or instructor, in today's educational environment) -- and given that students new to photography (and possibly new to actually following instructions) are likely to make one-shot or one-session chemicals a good decision (so Syd's crossup between stop bath and fixer doesn't result in Georgie's "fixer" leaving the film milky), the cost of stop bath can still have an impact. You can exaggerate for ridicule all you like -- but if it isn't free, it's going to be a decision for someone, rather than a no-brainer.

 

[alanrockwood]

I don't get it. I solved this problem for all you people 16 years ago

Thank you. Yes, and if I recall your opinion is that water works just fine. I don't know about prints, but for film I am 99.99% sure that this is true.

I think it is a very telling fact that no one with a contrary opinion has shown any experimental data showing that for processing of negatives water is in any way inferior to acid stop bath, regardless of whether it is their own experiments or experiments reported by someone else. (I am referring to the quality and properties of the negatives here.)

The one caveat is that in making the comparison between an acid stop bath and water one might need to shorten the development time by a few seconds if using water as a stop bath to compensate for the fact that an acid stop bath arrests development a tiny bit faster than a water stop bath, but even if one didn't use an adjusted development time I'll bet anyone would be hard-pressed to detect a difference.

By the way, did you used to live in Utah?

 

[john_s]

Nobody is going to have the last word on this topic, so I'm not attempting to do so. My take on the discussion and also based on a lot of printing over a few decades is that for fibre prints, water is fine if you have enough time and enough water, otherwise an acid stop is useful to prevent later staining. My acid stop is metabisulphite adjusted to be not so acidic which is thought to be better for the print and it is definitely less irritating to the nostrils (SO2).

 

[Sirius Glass]

Do you really expect us to believe you were so silver-spoon that you never had to worry about money when you were in college? Okay, if you say so. I was talking about student budgets, not the department (or instructor, in today's educational environment) -- and given that students new to photography (and possibly new to actually following instructions) are likely to make one-shot or one-session chemicals a good decision (so Syd's crossup between stop bath and fixer doesn't result in Georgie's "fixer" leaving the film milky), the cost of stop bath can still have an impact. You can exaggerate for ridicule all you like -- but if it isn't free, it's going to be a decision for someone, rather than a no-brainer.

The cost of a package or bottle of stop bath with indicator will not drive someone into bankruptcy. If that small difference will break someone, then there are frankly bigger problems such as food, tuition and board.

 

[Vaughn]

But when one of those, "Oh, shit, I'm out of Kodak Indicator Stop Bath Concentrate!" moments hits, it is nice to know that there are workable, easy, and affordable stop bath possibilities.

 

[JBrunner]

I take it back. This is better than the Rodinal wars.