Stop Bath.. How important?

[SchwinnParamount]

Oh my god! I step away for a couple of years and you all continue arguing this question? Clearly stop bath must be used... or maybe water is Ok?

 

[foc]

Oh my god! I step away for a couple of years and you all continue arguing this question? Clearly stop bath must be used... or maybe water is Ok?

The argument is going on longer than a couple of years !
I remember in 1978 when I worked in a busy photo retails shop, customers had the same argument, "Stop bath or water"
I heard every conspiracy theory imaginable about the effects of using/not using stop bath v water.
Why would Ilford/Kodak spend so much on stop bath R&D?
Why would you pay such a high price for basically acid in water?
I also heard so many homemade solutions, like a dash of vinegar in water, to which I asked "what kind of vinegar, apple cider, malt, red wine, etc" This of course set them mad with explanations.
I suppose the whole debate came down to sales figures. Stop bath was 50% of developer and fixer sales.
That was then so is it the same now?

 

[Don_ih]

"what kind of vinegar, apple cider, malt, red wine, etc"

They'll all work - try Balsamic for added tonality.

 

[tokam]

They'll all work - try Balsamic for added tonality.

You may even get a bit of staining for good measure. Probably less toxic than Pyro developers.

 

[Vaughn]

Water IS a stop bath -- it is just not acidic...or slightly acidic/basic depending on one's water supply. Or should we use only distilled water as a stop bath?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Oh my god! I step away for a couple of years and you all continue arguing this question? Clearly stop bath must be used... or maybe water is Ok?

This is an ageless debate between those who are wise and informed versus the uninformed who just wing things based on what they had for breakfast. Why are you surprised and welcome back as yourself.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

I dunno why there's such a debate. It's not as if indicator stop bath is expensive

 

[foc]

Would the non use of acid stopbath be because the user is stingy, penny pincher?
Because we all know that......................................

 

[Sirius Glass]

Would the non use of acid stopbath be because the user is stingy, penny pincher?
Because we all know that......................................

"Too damned cheap" is the technical term.

 

[Auer]

Is It Better to Take a Bath or a Shower?

https://www.healthline.com/health/bath-vs-shower

 

[Vaughn]

...
If water was a stop bath, water bath development would never have been a thing.

STOP in the name of love
Before you break my heart

 

[JBrunner]

A water stop can enhance certain prints because the tones don't stop developing at the same rate, as development is stopped by dilution rather than nearly instantly neutralized by acid. On many prints it doesn't amount to a hill of beans and on those that do it is still a very subtle effect. It's just another tool for box that one can learn to use. As for R&D, stop bath is acid and water. Anybody can whip up perfectly good stop bath from scratch, pretty rudimentary, and if you use acid you're gonna need to get it out of the print anyway. It's just not that complicated as far as I can see. Both accomplish the same task, albeit in different ways. Reminds me of the Rodinal wars.

 

[pentaxuser]

STOP in the name of love
Before you break my heart

it doesn't amount to a hill of beans

Wow is that the Supremes' guest appearance at Rick's cafe americain?

pentaxuser

 

[JBrunner]

Yeah never use a Rodinal stop bath.

I know, right?

 

[SchwinnParamount]

I paid something like $10 for a pint of concentrated Kodak stop bath (with indicator) which would last me 100 rolls given 4ml per roll. That works out to be cheaper than the tap water that comes out of my faucet. But yeah, as Steve says... indicator stop bath is far to expensive to use. Better off going to a grocery store and buying vinegar and figuring out how that works with film.

Apparently, I over-paid: Perhaps I should spend another $15 to buy enough Kodak Indicator Stop Bath to last the rest of my life... and even have half a pint left over for my sons.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

There isn’t much to figure out. Typical distilled white vinegar is 4-5%. Dilute 1+1 with water to make stop bath without the indicator, which is kind of useless or at least superfluous anyway. Simple as that.

I’m not suggesting this is better, of course. It’s the same thing. Probably more expensive than the Kodak product on a vol/vol basis.

It may not be "better" but if it is available where Indicator Stop isn't, it's the only game in town. Which makes it a great option.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

Well, that’s true. And as far as the indicator goes, even PE said the good old touch test is plenty. As long as it has the squeaky feeling between your fingers it’s fine.

Indeed yes. Especially since I toss my working solution of stop bath after a single use. I know the fresh batch of stop works... and it's always fresh.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

" As long as it has the squeaky feeling between your fingers it’s fine." is perfect for tray development and what I use to validate that my stop is working. However, for roll film in a can, I can only trust that my stop is fresh.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There isn’t much to figure out. Typical distilled white vinegar is 4-5%. Dilute 1+1 with water to make stop bath without the indicator, which is kind of useless or at least superfluous anyway. Simple as that.

I’m not suggesting this is better, of course. It’s the same thing, but almost certainly more expensive than the Kodak product on a vol/vol basis.

What about red wine vinegar? Then one could develop and stain the film.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

At school we're using plain old vinegar, diluted 1+2, to cut down on costs. A couple loonies gives me 5L.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Nah. Stain is useless unless it is proportional.

It sure matters when I get it on my shirts. I tell you.

 

[MattKing]

At school we're using plain old vinegar, diluted 1+2, to cut down on costs. A couple loonies gives me 5L.

That's $2.00 for 15 litres, vs $10.00 for 64 litres Kodak Indicator Stop (at Beau Photo, without any educational discount).
That is at least a little savings, I guess .

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

That's $2.00 for 15 litres, vs $10.00 for 64 litres Kodak Indicator Stop (at Beau Photo, without any educational discount).
That is at least a little savings, I guess .

For 64L of working solution?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I paid something like $10 for a pint of concentrated Kodak stop bath (with indicator) which would last me 100 rolls given 4ml per roll. That works out to be cheaper than the tap water that comes out of my faucet. But yeah, as Steve says... indicator stop bath is far to expensive to use. Better off going to a grocery store and buying vinegar and figuring out how that works with film.

Apparently, I over-paid: Perhaps I should spend another $15 to buy enough Kodak Indicator Stop Bath to last the rest of my life... and even have half a pint left over for my sons.

Indeed yes. Especially since I toss my working solution of stop bath after a single use. I know the fresh batch of stop works... and it's always fresh.

The whole point of the indicator in Indicator Stop Bath is so you can tell at a glance (in the storage bottle, if clear(ish) or in the graduate before pouring into the tank or tray) that the stop bath is still yellow (= good). If you're going to toss your stop bath after each used, you don't gain anything from the bromocresol purple (it's photographically inactive) and further don't need to have even as much as 2% acetic acid -- 1% should be plenty, and 1/2% might be okay. Buy the cheapest distilled white vinegar you can find, and dilute it 1+4 to make 1% acetic acid solution, you've got an adequate one-shot stop bath.

For those of us who are willing to store our stop bath and watch for the indicator to change or get pale, we get a couple dozen rolls per liter mixed per Kodak instructions -- the indicator thus making Indicator Stop Bath the cheapest stop bath (comparable to plain tap water for many folks who pay for city water). I just discarded my old stop bath and mixed fresh a couple weeks ago -- that two liters had been used for about fifteen rolls since I got it out of a twelve year storage and who knows how many before that. As a confirmed cheapskate, I'm a firm believer in commercial Indicator Stop Bath (though I also have some 75% acetic acid and a small bottle of bromocresol purple indicator that I think was comparable in final cost, given that I'll dilute that acid about 1+36 or so to get working strength).

 

[Vaughn]

Economics of scale and working conditions come into play.

I had 19 enlargers going at once with two sets of trays. Those nights before critiques we had to watch the indicator stop bath closely...dang students get in a hurry, getting too close to midnight, and start dragging too much developer over into the stop bath. But always a couple of gallons of stop bath working strength under the sink ready to go...and Rapid Fix. Could be a busy place. A non-indicator stop bath just would not work for our situation.



I bought the university a gallon of Photo-flo 2100 twenty+ years ago. While not cheap, if who ever is in charge of the darkroom knows what's what, it could still be in use. I doubt it. Hope no one ever mixes it up with the 200! Same chemical mix as the Photo-flo 200...but the Photo-flo 600 uses a more toxic mix.