Stop Bath.. How important?

Vaughn

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When using standard developers and fixers in Jobo Expert Drums (sheet film) and SS tanks (two 120 reels per tank), I like knowing that my Kodak Indicator Stop Bath has quickly reached all the corners and remote places within my tanks and lids -- even if they are round cylinders and have no corners -- and that no drops of unneutralized developer lurk about. In places like behind the film next to the Expert Drums' walls
 
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Dali

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I always use stop bath (diluted white vinegar) for prints to avoid brown stains. For films, I use tap water instead.
 

mshchem

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One case for stop bath is RODINAL this stuff is loaded up with sodium and potassium hydroxide. If you use an acid fix Rodinal needs to be washed out of the tank, or neutralized with stop bath. I've had enough stop bath "donated" to me over time that I will never run out. You can buy white vinegar for a couple dollars for a huge bottle, a couple tablespoons per liter, use and toss.
If you are sensitive to the odor treat yourself to Ilford's citric acid stop, this is all I use for prints.
Test all you want. A properly formulated stop bath uses a mildly acidic solution to neutralize the alkaline developer. This doesn't damage the film. It's a good practice. Keep your solutions at a constant temperature, start to finish.
 

138S

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By bring up TF4 and TF5 you are adding confusion to someone just starting in darkroom work and causing damage to the OP and other beginners.

I don't think... The Article has a severe pitfall, it says that acidic bath preserves fixer and water bath not. Look, itr's just the counter: Water stop ALWAYS preserves fixer, Acidic Stop DAMAGES some fixers. So I'm not confusing beginners, I bring clarity.




Again, let me clarify. First you can use simple Water Stop with paper, but if you open lights before fixing is complete (to see print with white light as soon as possible) then development may start in the newly exposed areas, specially if paper contains Hydroquinone in the emulsion formula and if fixer is alkaline. Acid fixer is usefull because you can inspect the test stripes, the protoype print or the final print to know if you are done and you can insert another frame or if you have to try it again.
 
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BrianShaw

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We went over this to lengths, horse died several times in that thread. But you might want to look it up as there was some good input, not just how to dispose a dead horse
Apparently the horse isn’t dead enough yet!
 

Kyle M.

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Never. I was taught that it wasn't needed and have therefore never used it. I currently use only Obsidian Aqua as my developer and the batch I mixed up may well last a lifetime considering that 1 liter will do 1000 rolls of 35mm or 120 supposing you don't spill any. I use a water pre wash, water stop, and a water/dish soap final rinse. I've never had an issue with water spotting but I have city water.

Someone previously mentioned fixer being expensive. I bought a 5 liter jug of Ilford fixer several years ago for $30, I mix mine 1+9 and I've barely used any of that fixer. Now some will say "How do you know your method is archival?" I don't I also don't know if I'll be here in 20+ years to care, I also don't care if someone finds my work posthumously and can't put it in a gallery because my negatives have degraded. I'm shooting for me not future generations. I store my negatives well, everything is scanned and backed up, and that's good enough for me.
 

138S

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mshchem

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The first couple editions of the cookbook were mostly reprints of earlier manufacturer data.

I have no desire to fiddle around with a alkaline fixer. Every commercial process that I know of uses ammonium thiosulfate as fixer. C41, E6, RA-4 etc. I buy Fuji Unilec fixer for E6 and C41, It's incredibly cheap. I bought a 5 gallon cubitainer makes 100L of working solution, I'm sure I will end up using it for everything. 50 cents a liter.

All these discussions always end up with the miraculous TF whatever fixer.

Do whatever you want. Just don't start smoking or drink to excess. Peace
 

cliveh

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I would suggest the answer to this question is yes and no. If you are printing from home with a small throughput of prints then water as a stop bath is quite adequate. If on the other hand you have a college photographic department where the throughput is large and you have a alkali developer and an acid fixing bath, then an acidic stop bath will help preserve your fixer by ensuring that the throughput does not carry over alkali to reduce the acidity of the fixer.
 

alanrockwood

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We went over this to lengths, horse died several times in that thread. But you might want to look it up as there was some good input, not just how to dispose a dead horse
The difference here is that the original poster actually tested the dead horse before disposing of it. I don't recall anyone reporting an actual A/B comparison in any of the other discussions of this topic.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Merged to the grand "Do we need a stop bath?" megathread.
 

alanrockwood

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Merged to the grand "Do we need a stop bath?" megathread.
For clarification, this merging of the threads changes the meaning of the post I made an hour or so ago where I referred to the original poster. When I referred to "original poster" I mean the post made by lonelyboy earlier today.
 

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Merged to the grand "Do we need a stop bath?" megathread.

We should achieve White Dwarf density by next weekend, and I'm hoping we get to Black Hole before the end of 2020.
 

138S

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I bought a 5 gallon cubitainer makes 100L of working solution, I'm sure I will end up using it for everything. 50 cents a liter.

Yes... this is a best buy !!!


All these discussions always end up with the miraculous TF whatever fixer.

This is not about miracles... but alkaline fixers are more efficient for modern emulsions.

Another interesting thing, alkaline fixers perform well better than acidic ones in removing the pink stain of Kodak TMax films, absolutely you would prefer an alkaline fixer if often shooting TMax. In this context, (alkaline fixer) better using a water stop, fixers are well buffered to hold pH but as fixer gets used you may have to measure and correct pH of the fixer if throwing acid to the alkaline fixer, still one may rinse with water after acidic stop and before alkaline fixing.

Hypo or a Plain Water long time bath also removes the pink stain, or but no doubt that using using alkaline fixer saves a time and effort remarkably.


then an acidic stop bath will help preserve your fixer by ensuring that the throughput does not carry over alkali to reduce the acidity of the fixer.

IMO it is missleading saying that Acidic stop is the one protecting the fixer. A Water Stop also protects perfectly the fixer, and it "protects better" the fixer than Acidic Stop because Acidic Stop damages the fixer if you use an alkaline of neutral fixer, while Water Stop protects fixers always, not mattering what fixer kind you use.

If speaking about fixer protection, then Water Stop wins... or at least with Acidic Stop you may have to make a water rinse before a neutral/alkaline fixer, to not damage it.

A Water Stop is the perfection for film processing, you rinse/dump some 3 times times and the film gets perfectly clean, you bring nothing to the fixer but some water drops, Water Stop is one shot, always fresh, with no dirty chem accumulation. Again, nothing wrong with Acidic Stop if you rinse with water before a potential alkaline fixer usage...
 
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Vaughn

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The exceptions are exceptionally exceptional.
 

Sirius Glass

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Exceptions prove the rule. AND they are exceptions.
 

cliveh

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You are muddying the question if you start mentioning alkaline fixer.

I am talking about high throughput in alkaline developer and acidic fixer. If you use a water stop for one day and an acidic stop the next day and measure the pH of the fixer at the end of each day, you will find that on the day you used an acidic stop, the pH of your fixer will be nearer to the original fix.
 

Sirius Glass

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Please do not confuse 138S with facts, that only provokes him.
 

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While I've got to finish last bottle of Bacardi, is someone going to make a book out of this? Seems a 2 volume set might do for starters. Vol.1 Stop Bath - The Dos ... Vol.2 Stop Bath - The Donts, compiled by Al Wise the 3rd, printed in tri-tone in Singapore.

Thoughtful Christmas gift too.
 

138S

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I agree totally. Also a well buffered alkaline fixer won't require the acid intake from carried an acid stop bath to stay ok.

Only one addition, in case we use the efficient double Fixing Bath with the well buffered alkaline TF-4 (or the like) we use the fixer until advanced exhaustion of the first bath, in that case the acid from a (not suitable) Acid Stop may damage the alkaline fixer before we plan to dump it, or fixer pH may has to be corrected (with NaOH for example) to compensate that undesired Acid.



Well, this depends on if the Acid fixer is well formulated or not. A well formulated Acid fixer is well buffered enough to not require the acid from an Stop Bath to work perfectly until exhaustion. Still a fixer can be formulated to require/tolerate that acid intake.



You are muddying the question if you start mentioning alkaline fixer.

Man, no muddying at all. What is missleading is saying that Acid Stop protects fixer and Water Stop not. Water stop perfectly protects fixer totally because you only carry water drops with film.

If you say that some fixers require Acid addition as they are used then this can be well admited, of course, but you also may correct the pH of the fixer anyway. If one uses a not well buffered Acid fixer then he also may check pH an adding some acid, this is better than throwing an unconrolled acid amount from stop bath.

For clarity, one thing is protecting Fixer from receiving developer and another one is correcting pH.

----------

I don't try muddying, but clarifying.

Reality today is different than several decades ago. In the past fixers were mostly acidic... this has changed, so today we cannot say that Acid Stop protects better Fixers, we can only say that they only correct the pH of some acidic fixers as they are exausted... but Acid Stop is harmful for alkaline fixers that today are popular and increasing their popularity.

Today alkaline fixers have become increasingly popular for several reasons:

> No hypo required

> Shorter washing times

> It removes more/faster the T-MAX pink stain

> Greater capacity than acid fixers.

> Both sodium and ammonium thiosulfate are more stable in the alkaline medium of the alkaline fixer.

> Water Stop bath (clean one shot) becames a perfect solution, while classic Acid Stop is harmful, still some alkaline fixers are well buffered to resit that acid to a certain point.

> Many advantages, no disadvantage with modern emulsions not requiring a hardener that requires an acidic pH...


Also we have to remember that Acetic fumes (specially from concentrated) are a hazard in the darkroom, if wanting Acid Stop, better if using Citric.
 
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