Stop Bath.. How important?

[warden]

"Prithee, sir, why dost thou use stop bath, when a pure aqueous solution is just as efficacious?"
-- Some random Victorian prat

 

[138S]

So on the one hand, we have a chemical reaction which will very quickly neutralize the developer, and if the two are designed to work well together, should neutralize the stop as well-- total time about 30 seconds, including filling and emptying (assuming a Paterson-style tank).

On the other hand, we have a soak, rinse, repeat process that consumes 3 to 4 times as much water, takes a few minutes, and the only benefit is saving the cost of a couple tablespoons of acetic/citric acid.

It sounds to me as if the ideal process would be to use stop bath, followed by a quick rinse, which would neutralize the developer and the stop, and heavily dilute any remaining chemicals before the use of fixer-- assuming the goal is properly neutralized developer and minimal contamination of fixer.

Rinsing/dumping several is what I do, but I also did it when I was using Acid Stop before alkaline fixer. Regular Stop Bath don't require dumping water several times.

For convenience Water Stop wins... you dump the one shot used developer and you just fill with tap water in the sink until water overflows, that's all... after 1 min you dump water... With Acid Stop you have to keep it in a bottle, recovering it, storing it, mixing it...

But it is true that some Acid fixers benefit the Acid income from the Acid Stop... Still a good pratice to keep any fixer in shape is measuring pH from time to time, and correcting it as it is necessary.

Another question is how much we want to exhaust fixer... recommended/suggested maximum silver levels are well higher for film than for paper... this matters for the stop bath because the if we use the wrong Stop bath for the fixer (Water Stop for Acid Fixer or Acid Stop for Alkaline fixer) then we may damage the Fixer's pH if wanting to use the fixer upto deep exhaustion, this is the case when using a efficient double bath fixer in what we totally exhaust the first bath. If we are not to exhaust much the fixer to make a good job with single bath, then perhaps pH won't get that damaged even if we misstreat the fixer.

 

[Vaughn]

"Prithee, sir, why dost thou use stop bath, when a pure aqueous solution is just as efficacious?"
-- Some random Victorian prat

But Sir, thoust pure aqueous solution is in truth a stop bath, pray tell...

Why are we going for, or aiming for, consensus? Consensus and personal preference are like oil and water. Most threads arrive at their destinations within 4 pages -- after that it is personalities, interesting snippets of information (like the citric acid vs hardeners in fixers), productive and non-productive (but interesting) diversions. And some threads rise from years-long slumbers.

 

[cliveh]

Perhaps all these threads on stop bath v water should be made into a book entitled STOP

 

[138S]

Perhaps all these threads on stop bath v water should be made into a book entitled STOP

Why ? let people speak if they want. It is not mandatory you read or participate in the threads you dislike...

Anyway, you are right in some way, IMO it is amazing that this low relevance topic generates a controversy, as both ways can be used, being only relevant understanding the nuances each way has.

There are other low relevance topics in that chapter generating controversy, good examples are Prewetting and "Rotary Excellence".

Other heated topics have more technical relevance, in that chapter we have pyro effect, silver chloride paper, linear film, split grade...

It is interesting that last edition of the Film Developing Cookbook generated controversy just in the most irrelevant topics, like prewetting and effects of rotary. That book just explains technical facts but some rotary practitioners felt "offended"... when that book is a relevant vault filled with deep knowledge and wisdom.

 

[cliveh]

Why don't all the participants of this thread and other threads on the same topic split the cost to self publish it as a book? And if it makes a profit we could consider some of the other mundane examples discussed by 138S above.

 

[cliveh]

But where does the meat go?

I don't understand.

 

[138S]

Why don't all the participants of this thread and other threads on the same topic split the cost to self publish it as a book? And if it makes a profit we could consider some of the other mundane examples discussed by 138S above.

The book has been published, it is The Film Developing Cookbook. IMO, regarding common darkroom chemistry there is little to add, for the level most of us may sport. Usually several points of view on every topic are explained alongside with technical evidence.

Other advanced topics are demystified in Way Beyond Monochrome, for example... also nothing to add... for the level most of us may sport.


So it's bit weird discussing if the Water or the Acid stop is the "best in the world" when important thing is explaining how to use both properly, and what interaction each has with each kind of fixer.

If we use an alkaline fixer to better remove the tmx pink stain then we have to know the chemical compatibility of the Stop bath, and if we require an acid fixer to allow a hardener we need to know the Acid_Stop-Fixer synergy... not way is better, all depends on our practical situation.

Controversy comes when somebody says one way is "the best" when not considering the very diverse situations we may have.

I don't understand.

the economic rights on the profits from the "book".

 

[removed account4]

But where does the meat go?

these pretzels are making me thirsty

 

[foc]

The thread title is
Stop Bath.. How important?
Obviously, after 32 pages over the years, the answer is YES very important.

 

[138S]

No worries, Clive. It’s from an episode of Seinfeld.

this one... very good !!!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I follow PE and Way Beyond Monochrome and not The Film Developing Cookbook.

 

[BrianShaw]

I follow PE and Way Beyond Monochrome and not The Film Developing Cookbook.

That’s nice. What do you disagree with about Film Developing Cookbook. I’m curious because it’s on my reading list for later this week.

 

[138S]

That’s nice. What do you disagree with about Film Developing Cookbook. I’m curious because it’s on my reading list for later this week.

Brian, please explain to Sirius Glass that Way Beyond Monochrome says this in page 194, Developers and Water section:

The variety of film developers available is bewildering,
and writing about different developers with all their
advantages or special applications has filled several
books already. The Darkroom Cookbook by Steve Anchell
is full of useful formulae, and is my personal
favorite.

After reading TDC Sirius will be prepared to read The Film Developing Cookbook, also by Anchell, isn't it ?
_________________________

I follow PE and Way Beyond Monochrome and not The Film Developing Cookbook.

Sirius, LOL !!! Take it with humor...

 

[138S]

It has to be mentioned that WBM and TFDC are very different but complementary books.

For those starting, and for we those knowing what we want to learn, we should cite some Jewels:

Way Beyond Monochrome is an impressive book covering from Visualization to Framing, the entire photographic process explained with advanced concepts described.

The Darkroom and The Film developing Cookbooks are specialized books covering detailed intrinsics of the darkroom operations.

Post Exposure by Ctein covers advanced topics (including optics) for printing. http://ctein.com/PostExposure2ndIllustrated.pdf

Beyond The Zone System by Phil Davis covers practical sensitometry, calibrations and metering in depth.

By reading well those books one is to treasure a deep understanding about the analog photo process, they are complementary.

Phil Davis had been a USAF fighter pilot, so he has something in common with PE that flyed a F-101 recon derivative, IIRC...

 

[Sirius Glass]

That’s nice. What do you disagree with about Film Developing Cookbook. I’m curious because it’s on my reading list for later this week.

I have not had need of the Film Development Cookbook. I am happy with the results that I get. Ralph's and PE's opinions are good enough for me.

 

[BrianShaw]

I have not had need of the Film Development Cookbook. I am happy with the results that I get. Ralph's and PE's opinions are good enough for me.

LOL... fair enough. I’m happy with the results I get. The Ilford “how to develop film” guide has been good enough for me.

 

[Sirius Glass]

LOL... fair enough. I’m happy with the results I get. The Ilford “how to develop film” guide has been good enough for me.

Yes that too. Plus classes with Per Volquartz and Alan Ross.

 

[Lachlan Young]

So on the one hand, we have a chemical reaction which will very quickly neutralize the developer, and if the two are designed to work well together, should neutralize the stop as well-- total time about 30 seconds, including filling and emptying (assuming a Paterson-style tank).

On the other hand, we have a soak, rinse, repeat process that consumes 3 to 4 times as much water, takes a few minutes, and the only benefit is saving the cost of a couple tablespoons of acetic/citric acid.

It sounds to me as if the ideal process would be to use stop bath, followed by a quick rinse, which would neutralize the developer and the stop, and heavily dilute any remaining chemicals before the use of fixer-- assuming the goal is properly neutralized developer and minimal contamination of fixer.

The only reason BW fixers are acid is because of their need in the past to be able to be used with a hardener. Most colour fixers are near neutral to slightly acid (mainly to make them more pleasant to be around than if they were alkaline) - and arguably are overall better fixers than the 'traditional' BW ones. They are all well enough buffered to be able to handle whatever pH the film leaves the stop bath/ bleach etc at - far too many dilettante amateur 'chemists' fancy their abilities to be better than the highly qualified (often PhD level) and knowledgeable chemists who designed and engineered the fixers! If the manufacturer doesn't specify a wash step at a particular point in the process, don't add one needlessly! The acid stop has plenty of capacity - and won't cause harm to modern films. The only verifiably recorded problems with acid stop baths seem to have involved poorly hardened films in the 1950's and carbonate containing film developers.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The only reason BW fixers are acid is because of their need in the past to be able to be used with a hardener. Most colour fixers are near neutral to slightly acid (mainly to make them more pleasant to be around than if they were alkaline) - and arguably are overall better fixers than the 'traditional' BW ones. They are all well enough buffered to be able to handle whatever pH the film leaves the stop bath/ bleach etc at - far too many dilettante amateur 'chemists' fancy their abilities to be better than the highly qualified (often PhD level) and knowledgeable chemists who designed and engineered the fixers! If the manufacturer doesn't specify a wash step at a particular point in the process, don't add one needlessly! The acid stop has plenty of capacity - and won't cause harm to modern films. The only verifiably recorded problems with acid stop baths seem to have involved poorly hardened films in the 1950's and carbonate containing film developers.

I always get a laugh out of rank amateurs thinking that they know more than the film manufactures.

 

[Vaughn]

"For convenience Water Stop wins..."
"Controversy comes when somebody says one way is "the best" when not considering the very diverse situations we may have."

Exactly. I try to just to write what I do and why I do it...rather than classify it as the best, most efficient, or some win/lose situation. Efficiency works well for production, not always for art.
I contact print the entire negative with no dodging or burning...it is the way I like to work. It is just part of my particular process, from seeing to the framed print on the wall. Yet some people always seem to worry about images I might be missing. Facts are facts, and opinions are assholes...everybody has one.

 

[Vaughn]

Ready to dance?!

Just came indoors after having a little fire outside. I have 4 rolls of 120 in tanks ready to develop, but at about 5:30, a friend called by with wood and we sat around the fire for a couple hours as the full moon came up. Eventually joined by a third friend. Not too cold...mid-40s, but the humidity is up close to 80% which sinks in the cold a little easier...and makes the fire that much nicer.

They had beer, I floated some Scotch on top of some ice and Kahlua. No world problems solved, so it goes. Film might have to wait another day...

But...I might load up some 5x7 holders and take the bike and camera off to the redwoods tomorrow. Nah...Thursday would be better...

 

[alanrockwood]

It seems to me that thousands (maybe millions) of people have used acidic stop baths successfully, and thousands (maybe millions) of people have used water stop baths successfully, so why are we arguing about it?

 

[138S]

But...I might load up some 5x7 holders and take the bike and camera off to the redwoods tomorrow. Nah...Thursday would be better...

Vaughn, still hauling LF gear around with the bike ? This is a surprise... Great ! Not a challenge, having pedaled the southern island...

hmmm, technology advanced, with some modern electric assistance it would be a joy to haul Jim's ULF mosters around !!

 

[138S]

It seems to me that thousands (maybe millions) of people have used acidic stop baths successfully, and thousands (maybe millions) of people have used water stop baths successfully, so why are we arguing about it?

Well, second Stage OP posted this link: http://blog.hmlai.com/2020/11/29/stop-bath-or-not/

It can be argued that both conclusions at the end of the article are simply false and missleading... even the article title is wrong, as the plain water bath is also an actual Stop Bath, title should not be "Stop Bath? or Not?" but "Acid Stop Bath? or Not?".

As you say, both ways are equally good or bad, some nuances are there.