Stop Bath.. How important?

[Sirius Glass]

I know I was trying to help him/her, and those who might read the thread afterwards.

I just wanted to reemphasize the above crucial point. It is at the heart of so many of my own responses as well.

Too often here on APUG we have contributors who for whatever reasons decide to publicly swear by the results they obtained by developing something in yak piss. Or horse snot. Or fish poop. Or god knows what else. All in the name of needing to differentiate themselves and their "processes" as somehow being unique from the rest.

One of the serious problems with these "experiments"/"published results" is that at some point down the line a relative newcomer is going to come here, search in good faith, and read those so-called results. Maybe it's someone into digital who wants to see what all the fuss over film is all about. Or maybe an older parent's son or daughter who found dad's old Minolta SLR in the closet.

They will come here because of APUG's reputation for deep and accurate member knowledge regarding traditional photography. Then they will see someone's angry insistence that yak piss is just as good—no, better—than Kodak D-76. Along with equally emotional insistences that anyone who disagrees is somehow being abusive. Or is stopping all of the "fun". Followed then by dozens of subsequent pages of posts by more knowledgeable members trying to undo the factual damage for posterity.

Words have meanings, and meanings have consequences, and consequences can last a long, long time online. Especially when a site is Google-indexed. Not a bad thing to keep in mind...

Ken

[Edit to the moderator(s) reading this thread: Perhaps we should consider something like creating a new Experimental Processes sub-forum into which all of the yak piss threads could be directed? At least that way when beginners read them for the first time they will automatically have a little bit of built-in explanatory context attached? Just a thought...]

In principle, yes. But in reality, no. At least not at the beginning. I fail to see the learning curve advantage in suggesting a beginner start by trying to develop his or her first rolls of film in yak piss. Or in an edible developer. Or in Dektol. Or without a stop solution. Or with contaminated fixer. Or with no final wash.

Early confusion does not breed a deeper and more intuitive understanding of a new subject. Or engender much of a desire to continue the learning process. There are good reasons that high school physics instructors do not begin with relativity. Or with voodoo magic.

Ken

+1

In the past some experimenting APUGgers would post their finding as the Messianic answer for processing and did not state that they were posting that their work was experimental. Any new visitor to APUG would have thought that the posting was the method to use. Other APUGgers would take them to task about not posting disclaimers or warnings. That produced dissension and problems that are not needed. Experiments need to be clearly labeled.

 

[removed account4]

John, your work is unconventional, but my work is conventional with unconventional experience. We can speak to both sides of the "aisle". There is room for both, but lets not let one or the other weigh in on this.

PE

PE

it has happened often. and unfortunately the train of thought is that
if someone new/inexperienced comes here someday, they will read this thread ( or others like it )
and think because someone says they are going to use no stop bath or dish soap and not wash their film ...
40 people tell him it will be foolish, don't do it, it will ruin your film, been there done that 40 years ago,
and 1 or 2 people say, it probably wont' work, but it will be fun, tell us what happens, and while you are at it
try this too, and see what happens ...

will the gentle readers of the future really get so-confused about what to do and what is "correct photographic method" ???

it was kind of obvious dish soap wouldn't do much of anything
( and nolanr66 knew this ) but if the he felt like doing it, why discourage him? it was his time, his dish soap his film ... he's not on company time, or in prison or living at some sort of
religious compound where having fun is prohibited ( he didn't say he was going to listen to kenny loggins and dance )
why not let people make their own mistakes, and enjoy themselves
and if the results don't work out ... move on ...

so, no disrespect to you intended, but not really ...
it has nothing to do with conventional or unconventional work or experience

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

When I learned photography, and when I taught photography, it was the "old fashioned way". My students were stuck with one film, one camera, and one developer for the first semester. That was my rule, and I still recommend it today. Still, even that regimen has been argued both for and against, here, which is OK. Telling people there's only one way to do something will turn many off. In Nolan's case, he's been here over 10 years, so I doubt he's just beginning. I'd guess he has the basics down, and wants to try new things.

The discussion has moved beyond Nolan, as he has already politely stated that he is not looking for advice. And his results, should they be longevity-compromised, do not matter to him.

I have (sincerely) wished him the best of luck and suggested we all lay off. Even though I (and you), and most here, are already pretty well familiar with the reality of his final destination. Good for him that he wishes to walk that path personally. He too can then sign the log book already containing all of our signatures when he arrives.

I was addressing the newcomers who will at some point in the future read through this, and other similar, how-to threads. Most likely from the perspective of not being involved in the formal teaching context you describe, but instead just coming to APUG based upon online, word-of-mouth reputation.

Many will arrive here at an inflection point. What they see and experience here may very well determine whether they continue investigating film at all. Within that context I feel that we members (as unavoidable proxies for APUG in general) validating yak piss, and all of the other outliers, may not be the best way forward. For those newcomers, or for APUG's reputation as a reliable destination and source for information.

That's why I suggested a new sub-forum outside of the traditional B&W Film, Paper, Chemistry where we are now. Someplace where it's already understood that yak piss, while championed by a few DIY experimentalists, is not really considered mainstream. And may not be the best place to begin if one is starting from square zero.

It's not about telling people there is only one way to do something. It's about recommending a best practices starting point for beginners who wash up on APUG's shores. One that offers the best chance of initial success, and the lowest risk of disappointing inflection point failure. And you and I both know that's not yak piss.

Ken

 

[removed account4]

While I'd agree the dish soap idea was not something I'd ever recommend, I think Nolan should experiment in whatever way he'd like. Everyone is drawn to use film for different reasons, often looking for different results. There is an orthodoxy which crops up, here, on a regular basis. There is no single right way... no single right camera... no single right developer...no single right photograph. The beauty in our choice to use film/darkroom is in the vast options it offers. The creative advantages lie in it's flexibility. That's what we should be conveying to new visitors. And, we should be encouraging their experimentation.

coudln't agree more eddie !
but unfortunately it is an uphill battle for people who want to play, and always will be.
to a lot of beginners/visitors ( as seen in other recent threads ) need to
become well versed in ansel adams "the negative" before doing much of anything.
rather than a simple film test. they need to use mainstream developers and fixers, densitometry tests,
log charts and all sorts of stuff ...
and as seen in this thread, if someone decide to wander off the trail into the wilderness
they will be harangued, before, during and after their off-piste adventure. ...
it has nothing to do with creativity, eddie, or maybe it has everything to do with it.

 

[nolanr66]

One final post before I move on. After sleeping on it and all. I am not a person that can follow the other ducks wherever they go and I will wander off every time and that is my nature just as it is the nature for others to live in a box and never look peek out.

Anyway experimentation is what I wanted to do. The roll did not turn out well at all but there were a couple shots that I enjoy. I believe that learning comes with failing and well as with success. Anyway I learned that the stop bath is not important and that you can use it or not as you please. I learned that in the final wash there is a pink color with HP5 that I had never noticed before. The dish soap experiment was a flop but I learned that photo flo is probably a good idea. Possibly the detergent is responsible for the pink color but I just do not know. I learned that my squeegee was not working that well also just as a side thing. When you pinch it together half of it would still have a gap. Anyway I modified it this morning and it will work very good from now on. I learned that alternative thinking is something that you need to look very hard for on APUG. However I am not afraid to try new things and will continue to do so. Next up is photos of twirling subjects shooting 1 second and longer to embrace the blurr. I will not post about it in APUG of course. I am very excited to do this. I need to go to a dance studio or something of that nature. I will ask permission for snapping a single frame. However I could use my Grandkids to build some skill in that area first.. It will be a good project and I will learn from failure as well as success.

I would like to thank Jnaian for his support.
.

 

[SuzanneR]

The pink color is the "anti-halation" layer as it's being washed away from the film. I'm pleased you had successes and failures with your experiments, and it sounds like some good fun. So, with that thought in mind, let's keep this thread friendly for everyone. Thanks!

 

[removed account4]

One final post before I move on. After sleeping on it and all. I am not a person that can follow the other ducks wherever they go and I will wander off every time and that is my nature just as it is the nature for others to live in a box and never look peek out.

Anyway experimentation is what I wanted to do. The roll did not turn out well at all but there were a couple shots that I enjoy. I believe that learning comes with failing and well as with success. Anyway I learned that the stop bath is not important and that you can use it or not as you please. I learned that in the final wash there is a pink color with HP5 that I had never noticed before. The dish soap experiment was a flop but I learned that photo flo is probably a good idea. Possibly the detergent is responsible for the pink color but I just do not know. I learned that my squeegee was not working that well also just as a side thing. When you pinch it together half of it would still have a gap. Anyway I modified it this morning and it will work very good from now on. I learned that alternative thinking is something that you need to look very hard for on APUG. However I am not afraid to try new things and will continue to do so. Next up is photos of twirling subjects shooting 1 second and longer to embrace the blurr. I will not post about it in APUG of course. I am very excited to do this. I need to go to a dance studio or something of that nature. I will ask permission for snapping a single frame. However I could use my Grandkids to build some skill in that area first.. It will be a good project and I will learn from failure as well as success.

I would like to thank Jnaian for his support.
.

hi nolanr66
thanks + i couldn't agree more
there's lots of static ... oh well, that's life ..

have fun with the twirlers !

john

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I am pleased that Nolan is pleased with his personal interpretation of his experimental results.

I would also encourage searchers reading this thread in the future to consider expanding their search regarding the efficacy of a mildly acidic stop bath film processing step. If this thread is the only one you have read thus far, you may be surprised at what you find. And thankful that you looked further.



Ken

 

[dwross]

Beyond the rare case of super-critical development timing, the primary purpose of a stop bath is to extend the life of the fix, a far more expensive solution, so it's by and large an economic issue rather than a technical one. If you have residual developer compromising your emulsion after processing it's not because you did or didn't use stop bath, it's because the fixing was inadequate, most often from exhausted fixer. If you are judging the working tray life of the fixer based on the manufacturer's recommendation, you might end up using exhausted fixer because that recommendation is based on the assumption that the film or paper aren't going into the fix with active developer on them.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

 

[Ronald Moravec]

Improper agitation or inadequate agitation is always the cause of uneven development.

Also the faster the immersion into developer the better. I drop the loaded reel in even with single reel tanks. Larger tanks have lift rods to remove and immerse all the reels quickly.

 

[removed account4]

Improper agitation or inadequate agitation is always the cause of uneven development.

Also the faster the immersion into developer the better. I drop the loaded reel in even with single reel tanks. Larger tanks have lift rods to remove and immerse all the reels quickly.

fast immersion is tricky ...
with rolls that works fine, but with sheets ..
if they are in hangers, you will get surge marks .. and ruin your film.

 

[nolanr66]

I know I was not going to post again but I thought I would clarify how I was going forward with developing. According to Ilford a stop bath is not really required but it does allow you to know precisely when developing will cease and it protects the fixer from effects of the developer. However Ilford say's it is not actually necessary especially if you are not concerned about the fixer. So what I am going to do going forward is one time use with developer and fixer. I am not worried about the fixer being compromised. After developer I will fill my tank with water and rotate 5 times the same as when I am developing. After that go straight to the fixer. The final rinse is going to be reduced but I do need some time to discard my chemicals and such so I am going to do a final rinse and then to a photo flow rinse.

Yesterday I shot an entire roll on my Grandkids in my lovely back yard. I do a tremendous amount of work out there as I built a paradise in the back yard all with water conservation in mind. So mulitple patio's, bricks, low water plants, trees and such. It is also a wonderful place to take portraits and pictures of people in a posed setting or journalistic style. Anyway I developed the roll and the negatives are great. HP5, perfect grain, contrast, highlight and shadow detail. I am very happy.

Again thank you for your comments, suggestions and I apologize if I tweaked anyone with my experiments in processing film. As I found out with experimentation you learn from failure as well as success. Overall I feel my experiment is a success because now I have altered my process and so far my product is improved. I am also going to shoot HP5 100% of the time going forward instead of a new film every week. I am going to learn everything about this film I can in order to produce the best photos I am able. Today off to Point Lobos with my wife. I do not take a lot of tree pictures or ocean pictures but I usually snap a few. As you know Ansel Adams and other Masters of photography went there many times. So when you walk the trails you are walking in their footsteps. I always think of that when I am there. Adams was a great photographer but he liked to shoot photos of rocks and stuff and I am more into pictures of people and see the rocks and trees as background. Anyway we are different and of course he was a highly skilled professional and I am just a guy with a 35mm camera that still snaps off some HP5. My wife requires permission to be photographed as we have been their a few times so today I will just pretend I am a rock and tree shooter. I have tried to get something great out of those Cypress trees and the photos look ok and all but I have never really felt successful with them. Anyway hopefully the light will be nice today. Point Lobos is a state Park and sunrise and sunset are off limits to photographers as they close the park. To bad for photographers and for just watching the sunset in a spectacular place.

Good luck guys.

 

[nolanr66]

Just checking back and I have been developing with ID11 according to the chart. Basically HP5 with ID11 at 1:1 for 13 minutes. No stop bath and just using a water stop. Fill, agitate a bit and empty. I then use Illford Rapid fixer at 9:1 dilution which is not the normal but it will clear the leader in 2 min 30 seconds and I actually fix for 5 minutes. Then I rinse for 5 min, agitating a bit and finally a photo flo rinse.. I quit using squeegees as I found my fingers removes water much better and leaves no scratches at all. Using this system for quite a few rolls of HP5 since I last checked in. I am using a Watson Bulk loader for HP5. I have ordered some D76 as it is much cheaper then ID11 and will give it a try and if results are good then I will make it permanent. Anyway my system is simple with a minimum of supplies needed. Pictures are great.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

Been using either none or water for decades with no ill effect. Water may not stop development instantly as does ss , but if you build that into the time , the difference is very slight, perhaps 5 or 10 sec. None has been my procedure for 20 years. Learned from a pro wedding photog.

The real purpose of ss is to keep fix from diluting ( acid) with base developer thus preserving it. I never reuse it for film so it makes no difference. Alkaline fix can take alkaline developer without ill effect in small quantities. Photog Formulary TF4.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Stop is also vital to reduce non-uniformity in your images!

Running water is vital if you don't use a stop.

TF4 begins to allow stain to build up if seasoned with developer. This is true of most fixers. In particular, HQ carried over is difficult to wash out and causes a brown stain with age. This is discussed fully in Haist.

PE

 

[Jim Noel]

Water Vs. stop bath and film development

In the last couple of months, I've seen odd density variations in my Plus-X and FP4+. On the long edges of each frame is a subtle area of increased density which runs the lenght of the frame.

I develop in a steel tank with steel reels of course. For the last couple of years I've been using water as a stop bath as I was told I risk pinholes in the film when using stop bath of too strong a concentration. Rather than determining the correct concentration, I switched to water as it is 'supposedly' as effective as stop bath.

I switched back to stop bath for my most recent roll of film and the density problem also disappeared. There were no other process changes. Is it possible that a water stop bath is less effective in stopping development at the edges of the film where it is in contact with the reels?

Do you leave the film on the reels and put them in Photo Flo? That can cause succeeding rolls to have extra density on the edges because PF builds up on the reels and becomes a catalyst for the developer.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

Do you leave the film on the reels and put them in Photo Flo? That can cause succeeding rolls to have extra density on the edges because PF builds up on the reels and becomes a catalyst for the developer.

uh oh.....I do that when I use photoflo...although I wash the reels with hot water after

 

[MattKing]

uh oh.....I do that when I use photoflo...although I wash the reels with hot water after

If you do this, you need to regularly scrub the reels with something like an old toothbrush. Even then, the area around the ball bearings (Paterson type reels) can trap the Photo-flo.

It is much better to take the film off of the reels for the Photo-flo step. I use a litre measuring graduate with about 750 ml of working strength Photo-flo, but any wide mouth container will do.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I soak my film in Photo Flo while on reels. I wash with hot water. I have been doing this for over 50 years with no problems.

PE

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I soak my film in Photo Flo while on reels. I wash with hot water. I have been doing this for over 50 years with no problems.

PE

Me too.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

Me too.

ah...good

I've never noticed any issues...but I've being trying so many goofy things lately I don't need to add to any confusion if I get weird results

 

[Sirius Glass]

The only time I remove film from reels is if I am using Jobo reels.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

fast immersion is tricky ...
with rolls that works fine, but with sheets ..
if they are in hangers, you will get surge marks .. and ruin your film.

Every time I did immersion slowly with hangars, I would get trails of undeveloped area from hangar hole area on the bottom. Slower the immersion, worse the problem. Smash it down in less than 2 sec, problem goes away never to return.
I special ordered a hangar rack from Arkay. Six or 8 hangars fit and film does not touch. Only one handle to deal with. Again smash it down.

 

[removed account4]

Every time I did immersion slowly with hangars, I would get trails of undeveloped area from hangar hole area on the bottom. Slower the immersion, worse the problem. Smash it down in less than 2 sec, problem goes away never to return.
I special ordered a hangar rack from Arkay. Six or 8 hangars fit and film does not touch. Only one handle to deal with. Again smash it down.

unorthodox is good
i'm glad to read you solved your problem !