Stop Bath.. How important?

[Ken Nadvornick]

The key word here is apparently.

Best of luck...



Ken

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well Ken, I am not omitting the stop bath for anything philosophical or artistic. I am just cutting out an apparently unnecessary expense and have cleaner negatives to show for it. The roll I just processed was of some of my Grandchildren. The photos are great. If my results are equally as satisfying for a couple more rolls then it's a lock. I have some ideas about photo flo and the final rinse that I will be trying later. One step at a time.

If you want to cut out something unnecessary, then cut out all wash aids. They are not very good environmentally when compared to stop bath.

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

18 pages of this. I don't get it. But then I always did things the Kodak way, and NEVER had any problems. They say use stop bath, so I use it. There's just not a single valid argument against it. I don't even see why it's up for question.

I see a water stop bath as analogous to trying to stop at the stop sign when the brakes are ineffective (foot dragging is not the answer); or trying to stop when landing on an aircraft carrier after your tailhook misses the arrest system; or stopping a commercial jetliner after touchdown with malfunctioning thrust reversers. And, OMG!, how does one know the dev time to enter into records.

Kodak has recommended a stop bath from day 1.

See attached from a very very early Kodak manual on processing B&W.

I use a stop bath - it is cheap insurance. If I'm going to deviate from the correct process, it's going to be somewhere else, and for a noticeable effect, fun, or experimentation.

I believe I'll hide this thread. The idea of not using stop bath is.... (what's a word for ridiculous that is not derogatory or insulting?)

It is just that stop bath with indicators is just so damned expensive that some can only afford to use water instead.

 

[Photo Engineer]

PE, why has Kodak never made it clear that, as shown in the demo, this process requires a white shirt & tie and that the room light must be turned on?

You also have to have the apron.

I have a lab coat too.

PE

 

[nolanr66]

If you want to cut out something unnecessary, then cut out all wash aids. They are not very good environmentally when compared to stop bath.

PE

Well actually I was going to shoot several rolls of film without the stop bath to make sure everything is consistent and then I was going to see if a touch of dish soap would do the same thing as photo flo. If no water spots then I do not need photo flo. . After that I am going to skip the final rinse and just go to the soapy rinse. The soap will wash away fixer better then just running water anyway. At any step if it does not work then I will just forget about it.

 

[removed account4]

Having repeatable results depends so much on the nature of your water supply, format (size of negative - or print) and the rate of the running water, as well as fixer type and developer type.

PE
i get completely repeatable results using a water bath.
never had trouble, in IDK 30+ years.

Sure it works ... eventually.

It works very effectively quickly in practice.

Ian

exaxtly !

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Buy a liter of glacial acetic acid, then dilute it down to 28% stock (7 parts acid into 18 parts water, for safety acid always into the water, never the opposite), then further dilute 48ml of the 28% stock into 1 liter of water. This is the Kodak SB-1 working solution formula.

Put a piece of white plastic electrician's tape on the working solution bottle and keep track of the number of 36-exposure rolls that pass through it. Dump it and start over at about 20.

Photographers Formulary currently offers one liter of glacial at US$13.95. Not counting shipping, that comes to less than 1/100 of a cent per roll. Excluding stop bath is not the most effective place to economize.

Ken

 

[nolanr66]

$6.49 (@ B&H) makes about 8 gal. That's approx $.20/qt, which is nearly free. How is that expensive? If so, they're in the wrong hobby!

Or photoformulary has it for $13.95 makes about 16 gal, approx. $.22/qt., and they'll ship it to you via UPS Ground.

I did not say it was to expensive. I just do not need it so why pay for it.

 

[removed account4]

Well actually I was going to shoot several rolls of film without the stop bath to make sure everything is consistent and then I was going to see if a touch of dish soap would do the same thing as photo flo. If no water spots then I do not need photo flo. . After that I am going to skip the final rinse and just go to the soapy rinse. The soap will wash away fixer better then just running water anyway. At any step if it does not work then I will just forget about it.

i wouldn't do as you describe.
do a full wash, and don't use dish soap.
dish soap and jet dry ( something else people like to use )
are nothing like PF.
a small bottle of photo flo will last you 20 years
it takes 2-3 DROPS in a film tank or tray, it has no evil scent, it won't burn your nose
and is far from a nasty ( or seemingly unecessary chemical (like stop bath).
i finished a bottle of photoflo last year i think, it was purchased in the 80s.

good luck with your processing !

 

[nolanr66]

Buy a liter of glacial acetic acid, then dilute it down to 28% stock (7 parts acid into 18 parts water, for safety acid always into the water, never the opposite), then further dilute 48ml of the 28% stock into 1 liter of water. This is the Kodak SB-1 working solution formula.

Put a piece of white plastic electrician's tape on the working solution bottle and keep track of the number of 36-exposure rolls that pass through it. Dump it and start over at about 20.

Photographers Formulary currently offers one liter of glacial at US$13.95. Not counting shipping, that comes to less than 1/100 of a cent per roll. Excluding stop bath is not the most effective place to economize.

Ken

I will take a pass on that one.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well actually I was going to shoot several rolls of film without the stop bath to make sure everything is consistent and then I was going to see if a touch of dish soap would do the same thing as photo flo. If no water spots then I do not need photo flo. . After that I am going to skip the final rinse and just go to the soapy rinse. The soap will wash away fixer better then just running water anyway. At any step if it does not work then I will just forget about it.

Soap is not a substitute for PhotoFlo. Soap contains chemicals which are not good for film and slides. Search APUG and you will see that this subject regularly comes up and is discussed to death.

 

[nolanr66]

i wouldn't do as you describe.
do a full wash, and don't use dish soap.
dish soap and jet dry ( something else people like to use )
are nothing like PF.
a small bottle of photo flo will last you 20 years
it takes 2-3 DROPS in a film tank or tray, it has no evil scent, it won't burn your nose
and is far from a nasty ( or seemingly unecessary chemical (like stop bath).
i finished a bottle of photoflo last year i think, it was purchased in the 80s.

good luck with your processing !

No, I am going to try it all. Things can be learned from success or failure.

 

[removed account4]

No, I am going to try it all. Things can be learned from success or failure.

excellent !

dont' forget to rinse it enough that the soapy suds is gone, gummy film is a drag

 

[nolanr66]

I didn't say YOU thought it expensive ... look again at post #463. That's Sirius Glass' opinion.

Sorry to many posts to keep up with. I think I will drop out as it's ridiculous trying to fend off all of this. I will come back in a couple months and tell you how it all worked out with the stop bath, dish soap and skipping the final rinse going straight to the dish soap rinse. One step at a time so that I can evaluate the results.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Experiment and enjoy the process. However, all of you must remember that some bad results take years to show up.

PE

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Sorry to many posts to keep up with. I think I will drop out as it's ridiculous trying to fend off all of this. I will come back in a couple months and tell you how it all worked out with the stop bath, dish soap and skipping the final rinse going straight to the dish soap rinse. One step at a time so that I can evaluate the results.

[I see PE beat me to it...]

What knowledgeable people here seem to understand that perhaps you do not is the time frame required to evaluate the success or failure of your experiments.

In spite of your self assurance, you will in fact not be able to definitively tell us a thing "in a couple months". If it's compromised acidic fixing due to excess residual alkaline developer carryover, the damage may take years to show up. You can't with any credibility simply wake up the next morning just say "See? I told you so! Everything looks perfect. It's a lock."

In principle, that's the same illogical reasoning behind those who deny that the planet is heating up.* "You know, I walked outside this morning and had to go back in and put on a sweater. So I think everything is just fine as it is. It's a lock."

As I said, best of luck...

Ken

* Regardless of why that may be happening.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I ran a wash series with 2 fixers, F5 and my new Super Fix VIII. It took 5 years keeping at room temperature to see the difference!

PE

 

[chuck94022]

Sorry to many posts to keep up with. I think I will drop out as it's ridiculous trying to fend off all of this. I will come back in a couple months and tell you how it all worked out with the stop bath, dish soap and skipping the final rinse going straight to the dish soap rinse. One step at a time so that I can evaluate the results.

It's not necessary to tell us. We already know how it is going to work out over a couple of months. What matters is what you'll have in 10 years, but if that doesn't matter to you, no worries. The path you are following has been well trod over many, many years. It is well known what happens with a poor transition from developer to fix, what happens with inadequate final rinse, and what happens with dish soap. But you apparently want to learn this yourself. So enjoy the process. Just understand you aren't on some unique Mars mission, you're raising questions that have been asked and answered 10,000 times over the last 80 years, and many times on this forum.

Have fun.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

 

[nolanr66]

I will check back in 10 years and let you know how it worked out. Actually I have a good piece of film strip and I tested the dish soap thing on it and it dried without water spots. So Monday I will process a roll of film without the stop bath and without a lengthy water wasting final rinse. I will just go straight to the dish soap system and slosh around a bit and hang it up, give it a swipe with the squeegee and let it dry. The entire project will be fun. I will let you know how the first stage went Monday and then check back in 10 years.

 

[removed account4]

are you going to use regular fixer or something like salt water instead?
if it was me, i'd pull out all the stops. some sort of home brew developer, maybe
something out of this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
no stop, salt water instead of fixer and your dish soap
be advised, it takes longer to develop with that sort of developer and to stabilize with salt water it takes 1/2 day to a day but i figure if you are going mcgyvier, you might as well.
are you are you going to leave the film out in air and window light?
or put it in a photo file/glassine film storage thing?

i've used other things besides store bought-developer, not used stop, salt water instead of fix, not dish soap but a short wash and have film that is just not put away, not in window light (maybe that is next ) but just out in cf light and incandescent bulb ... a handful of years now
no bad effects. and if there was a bad effect, i don't really care, its just a piece of film.

its good to read people actually having a good time.

 

[nolanr66]

If the next roll that I develop tomorrow turns out well then I am just going to go forward using Illford ID-11 and Illford fixer. As far as storing the negs I put them into sleeves and then inside a regular envelope and write the date on it with a comment and store them in photo boxes that I get from Michaels. The kids have no interest in my photos to speak off so the negatives will just get tossed in the garage someday and eventually off to the landfill. I do maintain very good photo albums and those will last. I am using Pioneer space saver albums which are great for long term. The photo album itself slides into a durable cover that makes it shaped like a book instead of pie shaped. It protects the album from light and dust and getting tossed around or dropped. Fits on a shelf real good with 144 pictures per album. I do not see digital files lasting that long as keeping them going forward is interactive and the kids probably will not want to do that. If my negatives go poof in 10 years it's not an issue for me. I will just look back 10 years and have a laugh because I did not listen. However I suspect that people who have long term problems with their negatives failed to fix them long enough.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Do not omit the final wash! It is needed.

Don't use wash aids after it such as Hypo Eliminator.

Do use a wetting agent after the wash.

PE

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

If my negatives go poof in 10 years it's not an issue for me. I will just look back 10 years and have a laugh...

There you have it. One can't force someone else to care.

Problem solved.

Ken

 

[removed account4]

as if it really matters

it doesn't matter, none of it ...
if someone wants to have a good time, why not?
if someone wants to chart log curves of their film, why not?
if someone wants to process their film in their own urine, why not?
its too bad there are so many people that think having a good time
is out of the question, and everything has to be so rigid/set in stone.

in the end the only thing that matters is what matters to the person with the film and camera