Stand development - first attempt - blank film

[Jarvman]

hi all,

I tried stand development for the first time today after getting disappointing results pushing tri x to 1600 in hc110

I used R09 one shot developer 1+100 (3ml concentrate and 300ml water at 20 degrees)

Presoaked 10 mins
Agitated for the first 30s
Flipped it twice at the half hour mark
Flipped it once at the 1 hr mark
Left it another half hour for 1.5 hours in total.

FIlm is totally blank. Not even frame numbers or writing came out so the developer completely failed. What gives? I mixed the dev fresh today, only thing I can think of is that I didn’t shake the bottle of concentrate. It’s almost a full bit though. Very confusing.

Cheers

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

I've had Rodinal produce blank film - traced it to Cleveland water. It was only when I switched to using distilled water that Rodinal started working.

I believe Agfa specified a minimum of 10ml of developer per roll of film; the use of very little developer would exacerbate any water issues.

 

[removedacct1]

hi all,

I tried stand development for the first time today after getting disappointing results pushing tri x to 1600 in hc110

I used R09 one shot developer 1+100 (3ml concentrate and 300ml water at 20 degrees)

Presoaked 10 mins
Agitated for the first 30s
Flipped it twice at the half hour mark
Flipped it once at the 1 hr mark
Left it another half hour for 1.5 hours in total.

FIlm is totally blank. Not even frame numbers or writing came out so the developer completely failed. What gives? I mixed the dev fresh today, only thing I can think of is that I didn’t shake the bottle of concentrate. It’s almost a full bit though. Very confusing.

Cheers

I don’t know where you’ve gotten your information about “stand” development, but it’s wrong. You cannot use less than 5ml of Rodinal in the tank (regardless of total volume) and get acceptable results. I suggest you give up on these unpredictable fringe techniques and stick to tried and true processes. Rodinal “stand” development is overhyped and prone to delivering bad results. It’s not worth effing around with. The myth is seductive, but the outcome rarely is.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Not enough stock solution. I heard that 5ml is minimum requirement. Time to experiment.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Warnings about minimum developer per roll always come out when someone gets a blank or very thin roll, but generally, Rodinal works fine at 1:100 even for 35mm with minimum working solution (250-300 ml per roll), giving only 2.5 to 3 ml of concentrate. This has to be either a water problem, or a case of pouring the fixer first. If you've used R09 at other dilutions previously and gotten good results, I'm going to have to suggest the latter is more likely -- it's pretty easy to get crossed up and pour from the wrong jug...

 

[Jarvman]

Ah right. Damn. What is the issue with your water? I’ve never had any problems before with mine. I guess I should’ve mixed up a whole litre of developer. If I attempt it again it will be with distilled. Have you had any successes with it? Cheers

 

[Jarvman]

I don’t know where you’ve gotten your information about “stand” development, but it’s wrong. You cannot use less than 5ml of Rodinal in the tank (regardless of total volume) and get acceptable results. I suggest you give up on these unpredictable fringe techniques and stick to tried and true processes. Rodinal “stand” development is overhyped and prone to delivering bad results. It’s not worth effing around with. The myth is seductive, but the outcome rarely is.

A few sources on the net suggest it. The massive dev chart lists it too. What would be your preference for pushing tri x beyond 1600 or is it not really achievable. Another film came out poorly pushing by 2 stops in hc110. Was clearly more than 2 stops underexposed on some frames (very dark game arcade). Could I develop in a 600ml tank so I have more than 5ml concentrate or just give up on the idea of using this method.

 

[Jarvman]

Warnings about minimum developer per roll always come out when someone gets a blank or very thin roll, but generally, Rodinal works fine at 1:100 even for 35mm with minimum working solution (250-300 ml per roll), giving only 2.5 to 3 ml of concentrate. This has to be either a water problem, or a case of pouring the fixer first. If you've used R09 at other dilutions previously and gotten good results, I'm going to have to suggest the latter is more likely -- it's pretty easy to get crossed up and pour from the wrong jug...

Must be a water problem. 110% never poured fix in first. The developer is orange and the fix is clear so obvious to tell apart.

 

[pentaxuser]

I take it there is absolutely no chance that you developed it in fixer first? It has happened to most of us at some time or another. I find it difficult to believe that if Ed Buffalo's negs are fine with 5ml then yours are blank with 3 or that 3ml in the "wrong" water completely eliminates any vestige of an image including all edge markings

pentaxuser

 

[Jarvman]

I take it there is absolutely no chance that you developed it in fixer first? It has happened to most of us at some time or another. I find it difficult to believe that if Ed Buffalo's negs are fine with 5ml then yours are blank with 3 or that 3ml in the "wrong" water completely eliminates any vestige of an image including all edge markings

pentaxuser

Snowballs chance. Absolutely never. The fixer was in a capped bottle in the sink out of reach. I mix my developer directly into a jug for pouring. That’s why I’m baffled there’s nothing there, not even frame numbers. I might test later with a piece of film leader.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

No image and no edge signing means no development happened. No development means you developed with just water, or fixer. Or developer that was so weak, it was almost like water. If you've developed before with same tap water and all was well, then you can rule out bad water. Why don't you skip stand which is very risky, and push film the regular way? Or try semi-stand, which gives you basically the same result, with less chance of buggered film. I've only used full on stand or semi-stand to reduce contrast, and enhance edge effects.

 

[Jarvman]

No image and no edge signing means no development happened. No development means you developed with just water, or fixer. Or developer they was so weak, it was almost like water. If you've developed before with same tap water and all was well, then you can rule out bad water. Why don't you skip stand which is very risky, and push film the regular way? Or try semi-stand, which gives you basically the same result, with less chance of buggered film. I've only used full on stand it semi-stand to reduce contrast, and enhance edge effects.

Have been developing for years with this tap water and no problems. Definitely didn’t pour fix in. The developer must’ve been too weak to be active. I think this counts as semi stand because it was agitated half way through developing.

 

[removedacct1]

Read this: https://gitbucket.tundraware.com/tundra/Stand-Development

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

But anyways, consider adjusting your version of semi stand to include a couple more agitation cycles. And definitely increase stock solution. Good luck! Great first with short stories of exposed film.

 

[eddie]

Have you tried dropping the film leader into a batch of developer diluted as you did for the roll which didn't come out?

 

[pentaxuser]

Snowballs chance. Absolutely never. The fixer was in a capped bottle in the sink out of reach. I mix my developer directly into a jug for pouring. That’s why I’m baffled there’s nothing there, not even frame numbers. I might test later with a piece of film leader.

I am glad you are that certain and that fixer or water first can be eliminated completely. Yes the test is key. Let us know what that reveals at 3ml in 1+100 for the same time.

pentaxuser

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Not related to Rodinal, but:

Instead of pushing Tri-X to 1600 try pulling it to 200, it works much better. The gradation is rather lovely when developed in Microdol-X 1:3.

If you really need the speed for shooting in 'available darkness' then use TMZ 3200, and pull that one stop.

And, oh, I use distilled water for all film developers as a matter of course. I haven't had a developing session go all wonky since I made the change. Distilled water, at least hereabouts, is $0.69/gallon - cheap compared to the effort put into shooting a roll of film.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Have been developing for years with this tap water and no problems. Definitely didn’t pour fix in. The developer must’ve been too weak to be active. I think this counts as semi stand because it was agitated half way through developing.

How long was the mixed solution left sitting before you poured it into the tank? After 20-30 mins development, Rodinal at deeper dilutions (anything over 1+50) has hit exhaustion anyway, so you're realistically not getting anything useful beyond that point. Rodinal is not a developer that enhances shadow speed in any way whatsoever. You'll be better off with something like Microphen or DD-X if you want to squeeze the most speed out of an emulsion.

 

[Jarvman]

How long was the mixed solution left sitting before you poured it into the tank? After 20-30 mins development, Rodinal at deeper dilutions (anything over 1+50) has hit exhaustion anyway, so you're realistically not getting anything useful beyond that point. Rodinal is not a developer that enhances shadow speed in any way whatsoever. You'll be better off with something like Microphen or DD-X if you want to squeeze the most speed out of an emulsion.

It was used immediately after Mixing. . I have both those developers so should’ve used them for enhancing the speed then. Is hc110 unhelpful for enhancing shadow speed? Cheers

 

[Jarvman]

Not related to Rodinal, but:

Instead of pushing Tri-X to 1600 try pulling it to 200, it works much better. The gradation is rather lovely when developed in Microdol-X 1:3.

If you really need the speed for shooting in 'available darkness' then use TMZ 3200, and pull that one stop.

And, oh, I use distilled water for all film developers as a matter of course. I haven't had a developing session go all wonky since I made the change. Distilled water, at least hereabouts, is $0.69/gallon - cheap compared to the effort put into shooting a roll of film.

Distilled water is not that cheap here but will start using it if it’s safer for developing

I’ve just mixed a litre of Rodinal after shaking the concentrate vigorously. 10ml + 1000ml. Going to see how an exposed film leader looks after an hour.

 

[pentaxuser]

The developer was an ornage

Must be a water problem. 110% never poured fix in first. The developer is orange and the fix is clear so obvious to tell apart.

Just out of curiosity was the developer orange in concentrate form? I recently used 15/16 year old Rodinal and it was a burgundy wine colour which at 1+50 turned a very pale rose and I mean very pale rose colour with 10 ml of concentrate so at 1+100 using 3ml this should have been almost the colour of water. Was it almost colourless?

How old is your Rodinal , just out of interest?

Are you Welsh? Just so everyone contributing to this puzzle knows, there is nothing wrong with Welsh water although if you are English and Wales lose against the "old enemy " in this years "Six Nations" then avoid the water totally for a few weeks I say this as a Celt myself

All joking apart the leader test is key. While I used 10ml I just cannot believe that if 5ml is fine for Ed and Adox actually mentions 5ml as fine in is instructions for its version of Rodinal then 3ml is the equivalent of so useless as to be the same as using water

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

Is hc110 unhelpful for enhancing shadow speed? Cheers

I'll put it this way; Kodak's own published information states that D-76, Xtol and T-Max all deliver higher shadow speed than HC-110 - and D-76 has never been seen as a speed-enhancing developer. Maximum emulsion speed does not seem to have been a design aim for HC-110 - it was intended to fulfill a great many other specific needs in the broader industries that used photographic materials.

Diluted Rodinal is usually a violet colour.

 

[Jarvman]

It was used immediately after fixing. . I have both those developers so should’ve used them for enhancing the speed then. Is hc110 unhelpful for enhancing shadow speed? Cheers

I'll put it this way; Kodak's own published information states that D-76, Xtol and T-Max all deliver higher shadow speed than HC-110 - and D-76 has never been seen as a speed-enhancing developer. Maximum emulsion speed does not seem to have been a design aim for HC-110 - it was intended to fulfill a great many other specific needs in the broader industries that used photographic materials.

Thanks. I actually put some full litre bottles of Xtol out the garage yesterday in a bid to declutter the darkroom. That’s why I’m also developing these 6 year old rolls of film laying about. I bought the Xtol because I was shooting gig photography and it was suggested as the best to get speed from tri x. What’s the shelf life on full tightly corked bottles of stock solution?

Cheers

 

[Jarvman]

Here is how the dev looks. Burgundy in concentrate but irn bru orange when diluted 1+100. I left a piece of exposed leader in a litre jug of developer and after an hour nothing has happened. No darkening at all.

 

[removedacct1]

Here is how the dev looks. Burgundy in concentrate but irn bru orange when diluted 1+100. I left a piece of exposed leader in a litre jug of developer and after an hour nothing has happened. No darkening at all.

Your bottle of Rodinal has expired.