Stains

[Sirius Glass]

Well, if what you say is true, I would welcome someone from say smog bound California trying my method and reporting back.

I am not smog bound in Southern California. After we tighten the smog regulations on cars and changed to the summer blend, the smog moved much further east.

 

[cliveh]

Or even better, some place that is really dry and dusty.
There are lots of other variables. For me, in my environment, adding a surfactant to tap water works great. If I try some sort of specialized water, without surfactant, I get less desirable results.

If you are adding surfactant to tap water, are you not still getting calcium and other deposits from the tap water? If others do this, I rest my case.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you are adding surfactant to tap water, are you not still getting calcium and other deposits from the tap water? If others do this, I rest my case.

Surfactants prevent the calcium from sticking to the film.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I am not smog bound in Southern California. After we tighten the smog regulations on cars and changed to the summer blend, the smog moved much further east.

Smog is chemical gas and not dust.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Surfactants prevent the calcium from sticking to the film.

My water is very hard and has lots of calcium.

 

[cliveh]

My water is very hard and has lots of calcium.

Then you should use de-ionised water after wash and ditch the photoflo.

 

[MattKing]

If you are adding surfactant to tap water, are you not still getting calcium and other deposits from the tap water? .

Not with our soft and excellent quality tap water.
But it still has a tendency to bead up without surfactant.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

Perhaps photochemical manufacturers invested money in developing surfactants to make a profit? How can de-ionized water, even if pooled leave a stain?

Photoflo is a standard laboratory detergent called Triton X-100. It was not developed, I think, as Photoflo. I use it all the time in the lab to help dissolve biological specimens.

De-ionised water could leave a film (I do not know if it does), as it has had certain ions removed, but is not distilled. Distilled water should leave no film - I have my doubts sometimes, however, whether it is truly distilled or not.

 

[pentaxuser]

Photoflo is a standard laboratory detergent called Triton X-100. It was not developed, I think, as Photoflo. I use it all the time in the lab to help dissolve biological specimens.

De-ionised water could leave a film (I do not know if it does), as it has had certain ions removed, but is not distilled. Distilled water should leave no film - I have my doubts sometimes, however, whether it is truly distilled or not.

So what we need are reports from those who only use distilled water as the final rinse and no photoflo, ilfotol or other wetting agent.

Calling all users of distilled water only. This may kill the entertaining debate between cliveh and Sirius but there comes a point when a risk has to be taken

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

Then you should use de-ionised water after wash and ditch the photoflo.

Why? PhotoFlo is just so damned expensive and it still works. But one bottle of PhotoFlo will last like one hundred years and the cost of distilled water still keeps building up plus the gasoline for all the trips to the store to buy the distilled water.

 

[albada]

So what we need are reports from those who only use distilled water as the final rinse and no photoflo, ilfotol or other wetting agent.
Calling all users of distilled water only. This may kill the entertaining debate between cliveh and Sirius but there comes a point when a risk has to be taken
pentaxuser

That's me. Tap water is hard here in San Diego County. My procedure is:

1. After washing, fill the tank with distilled (not DI) water purchased at the grocery store.
2. Carefully dry my fingers and exterior of tank to remove all residual tap water, to prevent it from somehow migrating onto the film.
3. After a few minutes, dump the distilled water.
4. Quickly sling the reel around in the hand a few times to remove all loose water. Only tiny droplets remain on the film.
5. The film then goes into my DIY dryer that pumps air drawn through a HEPA filter.​

Result: No water marks, and no dust.

Mark Overton

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Mark. So we have at least one user whose distilled water does the job without any wetting agent. Robert, the OP lives in the U.K. where distilled water is obtainable but not particularly cheap- at least I have never found it to be cheap in my searches .

He doesn't say where he lives in the U.K. Our tap water varies immensely in softness. Some areas if not all areas in Scotland, for instance, have very soft and pure water and may be OK without wetting agent or distilled water .

I live in a particularly hard water area . My kettle need descaling regularly but I find that the level of wetting agent recommended by the likes of Ilford works fine for me using tap water so if it were me I'd try the wetting agent, in this case, Ilfotol, at the recommended level before trying distilled water, given its price

pentaxuser

 

[Robert Canis]

Thanks Mark. So we have at least one user whose distilled water does the job without any wetting agent. Robert, the OP lives in the U.K. where distilled water is obtainable but not particularly cheap- at least I have never found it to be cheap in my searches .

He doesn't say where he lives in the U.K. Our tap water varies immensely in softness. Some areas if not all areas in Scotland, for instance, have very soft and pure water and may be OK without wetting agent or distilled water .

I live in a particularly hard water area . My kettle need descaling regularly but I find that the level of wetting agent recommended by the likes of Ilford works fine for me using tap water so if it were me I'd try the wetting agent, in this case, Ilfotol, at the recommended level before trying distilled water, given its price

pentaxuser

Thank you. I live in Kent which has very hard water. I shall try Ilford at full strength first.

 

[cliveh]

De-ionised water is readily available and cheap from most large supermarkets. It is used to fill irons.

 

[Robert Canis]

De-ionised water is readily available and cheap from most large supermarkets. It is used to fill irons.

I currently use de-ionised but I have seen some particulate coming from the bottle! I have a supplier of RO water so will try that.

 

[MattKing]

I don't know the answer to this question, but I'll muse upon it.
Does the surface tension of various types of untreated water differ between types of water, and/or with location or other conditions?
Could it differ due to differences in film?

 

[cliveh]

I don't know the answer to this question, but I'll muse upon it.
Does the surface tension of various types of untreated water differ between types of water, and/or with location or other conditions?
Could it differ due to differences in film?

Well Matt, I’m not talking about untreated water and I would suggest that anyone who has used de-ionised water and still gets water marks or stains is not using it correctly. Let me repeat the method: - After the final wash, empty the tank and pour in de-ionised water to cover the spiral. Then twirl the spiral around in this de-ionised water for about 2 or 3 minutes and hang up to dry. In other words, the last contact the film has with any liquid is de-ionised water. No calcium deposits and thus no drying marks.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

Here in Wisconsin, Photoflo is not sufficient to prevent a hazy film on the negatives. I have even had a film on prints dried face up. Final rinse is always distilled water for both; with Photoflo for negatives.

 

[snusmumriken]

I notice that you titled your posts 'Stains', yet everyone is talking about drying marks. Can you clarify which these are? Are they visible in reflected light as scummy deposits on the back of the film?

If you are getting drying marks despite using filtered, de-ionised water and a surfactant, I would conclude that there is calcium residue being carried over on/in the film itself. So my suggestion would be to try using de-ionised water for the last stage of your Ilford-method wash too. Change it again for the Photoflo step.

Like others here, I have to contend with very hard water. The other things I do are:

1. Raise and lower the film in the final rinse a couple of times, to make sure the Photoflo reaches all of it - but not violently, you don't want bubbles.
2. As @albada says, while the film is still in the spiral, fling off as much water as you can. Dry your hands, pick up the reel and flick it a couple of dozen times over the sink. Then hang the film with a weighted clip on the bottom end.
3. Make the first two fingers of your hand into a scissors shape and run them gently down the length of the film. The aim is to encourage the remaining water to run down to the bottom, rather than to sit about as droplets. I barely touch the emulsion side, and usually run my fingers down the backing side a second time too. There's obviously a risk of scratching the film if you are too rough, but I find this helps.
4. If despite all this there are still drying marks, they can be removed after drying from the backing side only using a rag of some well-washed pure cotton garment wrapped round a finger and dipped in de-ionised water. Place the negs emulsion-down on a very clean dry surface. Wipe very gently in a circular motion and absorb the moisture again even more gently using a dry part of the same rag.

Now, can anyone tell me why drying marks only form on the backing side? My guess is because residual water is spread more evenly on the absorbent emulsion side, any calcium scum is well distributed and imperceptible. Could that be right?

 

[tezzasmall]

I've browsed the majority of posts on this thread.

During my photographic life, I have lived in Kent, East London and now Essex. I too have had water stains on SOME strips of negatives over the years.

Whilst in London, I bought a middle priced photographic water filter. which stopped any 'stains' appearing, but a main part broke and I then started to use bottles of 'de-ionised water', bought from the local garage. I used it as my final wash with just a drip or two of photo-flo added to it. Again no stains.

I had a disabling accident just before moving to Essex and for a while continued to use bought water, when able to buy some. Then, after reading another thread about this issue, it was recommended to use a home water filter. I have and use a Brita system. Using tap water filtered through this, in the last two washes, provides me with clean negatives, comparable to buying and using the shop bought water!

If you have a home water filter, try it. If not, at least think about it, as various systems can be bought relatively cheaply. Others have mentioned using the water collected by home 'dehumidifiers', with great success, so worth a try if you already have one.

Terry S

 

[Robert Canis]

I've browsed the majority of posts on this thread.

During my photographic life, I have lived in Kent, East London and now Essex. I too have had water stains on SOME strips of negatives over the years.

Whilst in London, I bought a middle priced photographic water filter. which stopped any 'stains' appearing, but a main part broke and I then started to use bottles of 'de-ionised water', bought from the local garage. I used it as my final wash with just a drip or two of photo-flo added to it. Again no stains.

I had a disabling accident just before moving to Essex and for a while continued to use bought water, when able to buy some. Then, after reading another thread about this issue, it was recommended to use a home water filter. I have and use a Brita system. Using tap water filtered through this, in the last two washes, provides me with clean negatives, comparable to buying and using the shop bought water!

If you have a home water filter, try it. If not, at least think about it, as various systems can be bought relatively cheaply. Others have mentioned using the water collected by home 'dehumidifiers', with great success, so worth a try if you already have one.

Terry S

Thank you, Terry, for this, very helpful.
Do you use filtered tap water for your chemicals, also?

 

[Doremus Scudder]

@cliveh,

Do you squeegee your film? If so, then that's likely the reason you have no problems. The problems arise when the emulsion dries at different rates; areas with droplets dry later than the rest of the film. This can introduce stress in the emulsion and leave marks around the edges of the interface.

@Robert Canis
Mix your wetting agent with distilled water. Soak the film in it for several minutes before hanging to dry. This will help dissolved minerals to leach out into the solution and out of the emulsion. Mix the solution at recommended dilution or a bit weaker. If you see droplets, your solution is too weak. Use this solution one batch; don't save it for processing days later as it grows bacterial slime.

With 120 film, I recommend squeegeeing between two fingers (clean and smooth fingers, of course) before hanging the film to dry. If you don't want to squeegee, make sure the liquid is sheeting completely and no droplets are on the film.

Best

Doremus

 

[cliveh]

@cliveh,

Do you squeegee your film? If so, then that's likely the reason you have no problems. The problems arise when the emulsion dries at different rates; areas with droplets dry later than the rest of the film. This can introduce stress in the emulsion and leave marks around the edges of the interface.

@Robert Canis
Mix your wetting agent with distilled water. Soak the film in it for several minutes before hanging to dry. This will help dissolved minerals to leach out into the solution and out of the emulsion. Mix the solution at recommended dilution or a bit weaker. If you see droplets, your solution is too weak. Use this solution one batch; don't save it for processing days later as it grows bacterial slime.

With 120 film, I recommend squeegeeing between two fingers (clean and smooth fingers, of course) before hanging the film to dry. If you don't want to squeegee, make sure the liquid is sheeting completely and no droplets are on the film.

Best

Doremus

I would never use a squeegee on film. Just leave to dry in ambient temperature over 24 hours.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I would never use a squeegee on film. Just leave to dry in ambient temperature over 24 hours.

+1

 

[Robert Canis]

@cliveh,

Do you squeegee your film? If so, then that's likely the reason you have no problems. The problems arise when the emulsion dries at different rates; areas with droplets dry later than the rest of the film. This can introduce stress in the emulsion and leave marks around the edges of the interface.

@Robert Canis
Mix your wetting agent with distilled water. Soak the film in it for several minutes before hanging to dry. This will help dissolved minerals to leach out into the solution and out of the emulsion. Mix the solution at recommended dilution or a bit weaker. If you see droplets, your solution is too weak. Use this solution one batch; don't save it for processing days later as it grows bacterial slime.

With 120 film, I recommend squeegeeing between two fingers (clean and smooth fingers, of course) before hanging the film to dry. If you don't want to squeegee, make sure the liquid is sheeting completely and no droplets are on the film.

Best

Doremus

Thank you for your advice, very grateful.