stability of 'sunny 16'

Paul Howell · Apr 6, 2025

I normally see a 1/2 to full stop between a reflective and incident and meters depending on the scene, how much sky, or very bight and large reflective surfaces may be present. It is my understanding that Nikon optimized their version of matrix or evaluative meting for slides, not sure if true or not, with my F4 I use avenging mode for black and white. A few weeks ago I did shoot a roll of Foma 400 rated at 400 in my Nikon F using sunny 16, developed in Diafine. Lighting was good, used the old Kodak sunny 16 caculator from my Kodak Feild, without a desemotoery not sure if I can see any differance between sunny 16 and my Nikon F4 or Minolta 9.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 6, 2025

Craig said:
I measured just now, in several ways. I used a Gossen Lunasix 3, with it's proper mercury battery, Minolta Autometer III, Nikon F4 and Nikon F6. I measured using the both incident (where possible) and reflective off a Kodak grey card (all). All meters set to ISO 100.

Measurements were taken with meters pointing at the sun ( incident), or pointed at the grey card (reflective), which itself was perpendicular to the sun. Clear sky, 3 hours before solar noon in Calgary, Alberta, latitude 51 deg N. The results:

Nikon F4: 250 F11 EV 15
Nikon F6: 250 F8 1/3 EV 14 1/3
Luna6: 250 F8 2/3 EV 14 2/3 (reflective and incident identical)
Minolta: 250 F16 EV 16 (incident)
250 F11 8/10 EV 15.8 (reflective)

So between the 4 meters, I have a range of almost 2 stops. I have achieved excellent results on slide film from the Nikon F6, so I tend to believe that, along with the Gossen. The Minolta seems to be an outlier, I have not used it enough to say anything about results using it's readings.

reading off agraycard, which is pointed at the sun is prone to varibility dueto the angle at which is measured. thevariability is in your method, not in the sun!

DREW WILEY · Apr 6, 2025

What is the meaning of "sunny"? That happens a out two months out of the year here on the coast.

And what is a "gray card"? I once measured a stack of about 24 of them with an industrial quality reflection spectrophotometer, and they were all over the place, some as much as 15% off; and they even varied within the same brand. The only thing spot on was the middle gray patch of the MacBeth Color Checker Chart.

mshchem · Apr 6, 2025

The sun is about as constant as it gets.

Atmospheric conditions are something else. Kodak backing paper, in the good old days had great recommended settings.

foc · Apr 7, 2025

I live on the northwest coast of Ireland and consequently don't have to worry about the sun.

BrianShaw · Apr 7, 2025

mshchem said:
Kodak backing paper, in the good old days had great recommended settings.

… when photographers were more interested in getting a picture rather than questing for technical perfection.

My Dad was an avid amateur photographer and us kids were his favorite subjects. The most painful memory of that experience was him buying a real light meter.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 7, 2025

BrianShaw said:
… when photographers were more interested in getting a picture rather than questing for technical perfection.

My Dad was an avid amateur photographer and us kids were his favorite subjects. The most painful memory of that experience was him buying a real light meter.

Film was very mistake-proof back then. Remember those little yellow exposure guides inside the film boxes? Here's a picture of one of them. SImple. Hard to make a mistake.

kodak exposure guide chart - Yahoo Image Search Results

BrianShaw · Apr 7, 2025

Alan Edward Klein said:
Film was very mistake-proof back then. Remember those little yellow exposure guides inside the film boxes? Here's a picture of one of them. SImple. Hard to make a mistake.

kodak exposure guide chart - Yahoo Image Search Results

Good point. In hindsight, he bought the light meter because Kodachrome was so difficult to properly expose. So I should really blame Kodachrome for making part of my childhood miserable rather than blaming the light meter. If only I met you before years of therapy… LOL

wiltw · Apr 7, 2025

RalphLambrecht said:
reading off agraycard, which is pointed at the sun is prone to varibility dueto the angle at which is measured. thevariability is in your method, not in the sun!

Illustrating the point about variability of the light reflecting off an 18% gray card, varying with the angle to the sun...this shot series made years ago, admitted;y with inclusion of exaggerated angles for illustration how surface sheen contributes to variability, first row illustrating vertical angle variability, second row illustrating horizontal and vertical angle variability..e

...why Kodak instructions for minimizing variability said to, "Aim the surface of the gray card toward a point one third of the compound angle between your camera and (the light source)
(2007). (Note: these instructions do not appear on all versions of Kodak instructions...for example, they are not part of instuctions in 1948.)

Paul Howell · Apr 7, 2025

wiltw said:
Illustrating the point about variability of the light reflecting off an 18% gray card, varying with the angle to the sun...this shot series made years ago, admitted;y with inclusion of exaggerated angles for illustration how surface sheen contributes to variability, first row illustrating vertical angle variability, second row illustrating horizontal and vertical angle variability..e

...why Kodak instructions for minimizing variability said to, "Aim the surface of the gray card toward a point one third of the compound angle between your camera and (the light source)
(2007). (Note: these instructions do not appear on all versions of Kodak instructions...for example, they are not part of instuctions in 1948.)

In college and Air Force tech school we were taught that an incident meter is the most consistent method of metering, gray card is doable buy why use a gray card when you can use an incident meter just as easily?

Chan Tran · Apr 7, 2025

Paul Howell said:
In college and Air Force tech school we were taught that an incident meter is the most consistent method of metering, gray card is doable buy why use a gray card when you can use an incident meter just as easily?

Incident meter is easier than the gray card. But of course there are situation where neither would work.

Paul Howell · Apr 7, 2025

Chan Tran said:
Incident meter is easier than the gray card. But of course there are situation where neither would work.

That's why in really tricky lighting, spot meter or bracket or both.

Stephen Benskin · Apr 7, 2025

RalphLambrecht said:
reading off agraycard, which is pointed at the sun is prone to varibility dueto the angle at which is measured. thevariability is in your method, not in the sun!

foc · Apr 8, 2025

Paul Howell said:
That's why in really tricky lighting, spot meter or bracket or both.

When I studied photography, many, many years ago, we were taught "if in doubt, bracket. Film is cheap, client's time is not".

Chan Tran · Apr 8, 2025

foc said:
When I studied photography, many, many years ago, we were taught "if in doubt, bracket. Film is cheap, client's time is not".

But today film is not cheap and I don't have a paying client.

Paul Howell · Apr 8, 2025

I find that in good lighting 90% of the time I can use TTL metering, or a hand held meter in average or SLR with matrix, with backlit spot metering. Tricky lighting such as a woodland scene with layers of shadows and sun I bracket. When I shot my last roll with my Nikon F using sunny 16, decent lighting, full sun early to mid-morning, a few passing clouds, some shadows between buildings, the negatives are printable. I did cheat with sunny 16 as I used an old Kodak Master Photo-guide, with a cacluator for both B&W and color. The Color is not much use, but the black and white worked fine for shadows, open vs dark.

wiltw · Apr 13, 2025

wiltw said:
I measured one day earlier this year f/16 +0.7EV, and I meansured just Friday and again Saturday at f/16 +0.2EV. These measurements taken about 40 miles south of Latitude 38 (Latitude 37.512) about 11 am to 2pmI got same f/16 +0.7EV in July 2022, and posted that on Photrio. Both of these measurements were with the hemisphere pointed AT the sun.

Two more measurements, taken this week, mid April 2025

ISO 250, 1/250 f/16 +0.3EV with hemisphere point at the sun
ISO 250, 1/250 f/16 +0.4EV with hemisphere point at the sun

How 'stable' is Sunny 16?

Paul Howell · Apr 13, 2025

For black and white, not much of a difference. For color, negative more and slide film a big difference. When in college in the 60s I freelanced for several daily community papers, the Pomona paper at the time had a couple of ex Army photographers, (WWII) who used sunny 16 for black and white, but always used a meter for color.

Chan Tran · Apr 13, 2025

Couple days ago the sun went sunny 11 on me. It's back to sunny 16 now. I don't know what happened. There was no cloud or anything like that that day.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 13, 2025

Well, I was talking about checking the lightmeter against the sun, not the sun against the lightmeter.

runswithsizzers · Apr 13, 2025

Chan Tran said:
Couple days ago the sun went sunny 11 on me. It's back to sunny 16 now. I don't know what happened. There was no cloud or anything like that that day.

On several occasions, I have compared my meters to Sunny 16. Almost every time I measure Sunny 11 rather than Sunny 16. I am in southern Missouri at about 37* North latitude. Most often I am using my Sekonic L-308s meter in incident mode, but I get very similar incident readings from my Gossen Luna Lux SBC (aka: Gossen Lunalite).

A quick search through this thread shows at least 5 or 6 comments from members who are finding the rule to be more like Sunny 11. Some (but not all) Sunny 11 advocates, are reporting from high latitudes (above 50*). Interesting.

Craig · Apr 13, 2025

I have always found “sunny 11” to be accurate for my latitude (51 deg N).

I don’t know if elevation plays a role either. I would expect the light to be less intense at sea level than at high elevation.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 14, 2025

runswithsizzers said:
On several occasions, I have compared my meters to Sunny 16. Almost every time I measure Sunny 11 rather than Sunny 16. I am in southern Missouri at about 37* North latitude. Most often I am using my Sekonic L-308s meter in incident mode, but I get very similar incident readings from my Gossen Luna Lux SBC (aka: Gossen Lunalite).

A quick search through this thread shows at least 5 or 6 comments from members who are finding the rule to be more like Sunny 11. Some (but not all) Sunny 11 advocates, are reporting from high latitudes (above 50*). Interesting.

Don't see why higher altitudes should read less light intensity but all my 'sunny 18' readings were taken at ground level.

snusmumriken · Apr 14, 2025

wiltw said:
Kodak instructions for minimizing variability said to, "Aim the surface of the gray card toward a point one third of the compound angle between your camera and (the light source)

I can imagine explaining to your subject how to hold the card thus in front of her/his face while you take a reading. Is that the one third nearer to the camera, a or the third nearer to the light source?

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 14, 2025

Paul Howell said:
In college and Air Force tech school we were taught that an incident meter is the most consistent method of metering, gray card is doable buy why use a gray card when you can use an incident meter just as easily?

If you're using a camera with a built-in meter, a gray card could come in handy if you don't have another hand-held meter.

stability of 'sunny 16'

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