Spotting 'fun': Why does Neutral Black look blue?

[logan2z]

BTW, has anyone tried the Peerless dry retouching dye sheets? The Marshall SpotAll set no longer seems to be available and the sheets from Peerless look like they may be a good alternative.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/88244-REG/Peerless_GPC300_Dry_Spot_Retouching_Dye.html

 

[DREW WILEY]

I have a set of Peerless dry dyes in emergency reserve, in case I ever run out of Spot Tone liquid dyes, which are easier for me to use.
Peerless has liquid options too, but I haven't tried them.

Otherwise, as usual, quoting "reviews" can be counterproductive when it involves those who don't understand the basics yet. Again, they seem to be confusing the different meanings of a so-called "neutral tone" paper versus a "neutral black" colorant. And for the record, these dyes do wash clear out if you leave put the print back in the washer for awhile, which means starting over with your spotting of course; but it is an option.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

There's nothing permanent about pencil. It all sits on the surface. And how do you actually match the exact tonal hue of the print itself using a smudge pencil? Spotting with dyes is all about gently building up just the right amount of density by applying just a little at a time. You don't want a puddle.

I know how to spot with liquid dyes, but it is impossible to do it as well as with soft pencil. Also, you can re-work the spotting done with a pencil, and you can change the density, building up as you go.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

There's nothing permanent about pencil. It all sits on the surface. And how do you actually match the exact tonal hue of the print itself using a smudge pencil? Spotting with dyes is all about gently building up just the right amount of density by applying just a little at a time. You don't want a puddle.

Try it yourself! I don't use a grease pencil, just a very soft artist's pencil.

 

[logan2z]

Otherwise, as usual, quoting "reviews" can be counterproductive when it involves those who don't understand the basics yet. Again, they seem to be confusing the different meanings of a so-called "neutral tone" paper versus a "neutral black" colorant.

Not sure why you don't want to believe it but, trust me, this stuff is blue - regardless of your definition of 'neutral' It's been mentioned by others in this thread as well.

And for the record, these dyes do wash clear out if you leave put the print back in the washer for awhile, which means starting over with your spotting of course; but it is an option.

Right, I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that it easily washed out of my prints after a few minutes in the washer.

 

[Don_ih]

It's possible a batch was messed up or unstable and that's why it's blue. A "batch" of spotting liquid would probably take decades to sell at this point.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Augustus, photo retouchers have been using pencils for more than a century, especially on negatives. I have a set of my own. But the question with prints, especially stacked together rather than in a frame, is where some of that pencil treatment is likely to end up? It even transfers off negatives onto the enlarger carrier. And again, you can't finely match nuances of print toning hue using pencils.

Logan - what brand of dye are you accusing of being blueish? Spot Tone did make a Blue Black in addition to Neutral Black. Perhaps some of that got mislabeled. The leftover batches of all those SpotTone dyes were given new bottles and labels when Marshall bought them out. All the ones I ever bought were correctly labeled. But Neutral Black itself will look too cold when applied to a "neutral tone" paper like MG Classic, which is actually somewhat warmish. There's very little choice of true cold tone papers anymore.

 

[logan2z]

Logan - what brand of dye are you accusing of being blueish? Spot Tone did make a Blue Black in addition to Neutral Black. Perhaps some of that got mislabeled. The leftover batches of all those SpotTone dyes were given new bottles and labels when Marshall bought them out. All the ones I ever bought were correctly labeled. But Neutral Black itself will look too cold when applied to a "neutral tone" paper like MG Classic, which is actually somewhat warmish. There's very little choice of true cold tone papers anymore.

It's Marshall Spot-All Neutral Black (mentioned in my first post)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/34779-REG/Marshall_Retouching_MSCNB_Spot_All_Retouch_Dye_for.html

I have the 3-bottle set that includes Neutral Black, Blue Black and Selenium Brown. The Blue Black is much bluer than the Neutral Black so I don't think this is due to a mislabel.

 

[snusmumriken]

I seem to be sitting on a Spotmine. Apologies that this post is absolutely no help to the OP, but thought a photo might be appreciated for nostalgia's sake. For Ilford MG Classic with a light selenium tone, I use No.3 with a hint of No.2. Just that dried-out smear on the palette will probably see me out, so there should be plenty here for a couple of generations after I've gone. I've never used the Spot-Off solutions on the right, hope I never have to.

The brushes were a birthday gift last year. I thoroughly recommend them, infinitely better than the same size in artists' brushes. The synthetic fibre and kolinsky sable function exactly the same, I didn't need both. I'm not even clear how the latter were available to buy, as kolinsky is now a CITES-listed species.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Augustus, photo retouchers have been using pencils for more than a century, especially on negatives. I have a set of my own. But the question with prints, especially stacked together rather than in a frame, is where some of that pencil treatment is likely to end up? It even transfers off negatives onto the enlarger carrier. And again, you can't finely match nuances of print toning hue using pencils.

Logan - what brand of dye are you accusing of being blueish? Spot Tone did make a Blue Black in addition to Neutral Black. Perhaps some of that got mislabeled. The leftover batches of all those SpotTone dyes were given new bottles and labels when Marshall bought them out. All the ones I ever bought were correctly labeled. But Neutral Black itself will look too cold when applied to a "neutral tone" paper like MG Classic, which is actually somewhat warmish. There's very little choice of true cold tone papers anymore.

I don't spot negatives, just prints. I don't have any problem with transfer, at least not with FB paper.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Not sure why you don't want to believe it but, trust me, this stuff is blue - regardless of your definition of 'neutral'It's been mentioned by others in this thread as well.

I've had it happen with several of the dyes that have been made to replace Spotone, mainly if the blob on the palette is not left to dry completely undisturbed. In all cases it was, like you describe, with the 'Neutral' dye, but the colour was definitely more purple. Spotone is massively less troublesome, but the others can be made to behave themselves, more or less.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I'm spotting some prints made on Ilford Multigrade Classic fiber glossy paper for an upcoming exhibition. I'm using the three-bottle package of Marshall Spot-All dyes which includes a 'Neutral Black' dye. I figured that would be the best choice given the tone of this paper, but I'm finding that 'Neutral Black' actually looks very blue, especially when thinned out in an attempt to match lighter tones. My bottles are 4+ years old and this is the first time I'm using them so I'm wondering if this blue tint is 'normal' for Marshall's 'Neutral Black' or if my dyes have somehow gone 'off'. Maybe mixing in some 'Selenium Brown' will give me a more neutral gray tone. Surprised at how blue this 'Neutral Black' dye is, not exactly what I was expecting given its name.

Marshall is my second choice of spotting dyes; my first is Spotone, which is harder to find. Another choice is solid Chinese ink sticks. You will have to try a few brands to find the tone you like. Maybe somebody is willing to part with a few cc of Spotone to help you out.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Lachlan just brought out another relevant point. If you let a puddle of dye dry in your mixing cup, the ingredients might separate in a manner your really don't want, and which become something else entirely from what you thought you had. Always always always test on a scrap first before applying to your print itself. That can even happen if you puddle up dye somewhere on the print, and it dries out with different colored "bathtub rings". The correct way to do it is build up just a little at a time, and let that sink in or dry before applying more. Reworking it with a brush can have the same ill effect. I learned all that the hard way.

 

[Lachlan Young]

If you let a puddle of dye dry in your mixing cup, the ingredients might separate in a manner your really don't want

It's more if you disturb the puddle while it is drying that the problems happen, at least with the dyes in question. Something to do with the homogenisation/ relative drying rate of the components probably.

 

[john_s]

Many dyes are a mixture of colours to achieve the desired result. As your "black" T-shirt fades over the years you can see that one dye component fades more than other(s) leaving something that is not just grey. Just wondering, are the Japanese calligraphy black pigments just "black" and black only? If the colour of it happened to be a close match to a print, it would seem to make a good base for spotting, with perhaps a touch of Spotone to make a small adjustment.

edit: a quick search indicates that it's a lot more complicated than I thought. The use of animal glue might be an archival challenge? Maybe not when it's fully dried on the print.

 

[DREW WILEY]

You'd have to look at any alleged substitutes under a variety of representative light sources to see if they actually match. Metamerism can occur with dyes and inks, and not just pigments.

I have a long background in industrial pigments, and recognize all too well that there are few ingredients either truly black or truly white. Most have some kind of hue bias.

 

[koraks]

are the Japanese calligraphy black pigments just "black" and black only?

They're usually pure carbon black. Some cheaper inks (these are the liquid inks, not the sticks) contain additional dyes to shift the tone to blue or purple. Carbon black is generally warm black; mostly a very deep brown.

My main concern with using such inks or even watercolor paints is that with any pigment system, you're placing the colorant on the surface of the print. And not only the colorant, but also any binders, and apart from archival issues (which I wouldn't worry about too much; these binders are quite stable), this will affect the surface sheen of the print. The advantage of dyes is that they soak into the gelatin emulsion and there's no binder that will affect the print surface.

 

[john_s]

They're usually pure carbon black. Some cheaper inks (these are the liquid inks, not the sticks) contain additional dyes to shift the tone to blue or purple. Carbon black is generally warm black; mostly a very deep brown.

My main concern with using such inks or even watercolor paints is that with any pigment system, you're placing the colorant on the surface of the print. And not only the colorant, but also any binders, and apart from archival issues (which I wouldn't worry about too much; these binders are quite stable), this will affect the surface sheen of the print. The advantage of dyes is that they soak into the gelatin emulsion and there's no binder that will affect the print surface.

Good point about soaking into the gelatin so the surface remains unaltered. You have saved me a time consuming experiment.

 

[logan2z]

On a related note, does anyone know if the Peerless dyes (liquid and dry sheet) will wash out of a fiber print as easily as the Marshall dyes? I asked the folks at Freestyle who sell the Peerless dyes but they weren't sure.

 

[logan2z]

On a related note, does anyone know if the Peerless dyes (liquid and dry sheet) will wash out of a fiber print as easily as the Marshall dyes? I asked the folks at Freestyle who sell the Peerless dyes but they weren't sure.

I figured I'd go to the source and ask Peerless. Not exactly the response I was expecting :

I'm actually not sure because I've never tried it myself but I'd say probably not

I guess I'll buy a set of dry sheets and test it myself.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Welcome to the future. The last time I walked into our local photo store, the new product buyer didn't even know FB darkroom paper even existed. A couple years before, they had stacks and stacks of it. Likewise, spotting dye was down to just one bottle of neutral black. They didn't even know what that was for.

 

[logan2z]

Welcome to the future. The last time I walked into our local photo store, the new product buyer didn't even know FB darkroom paper even existed. A couple years before, they had stacks and stacks of it. Likewise, spotting dye was down to just one bottle of neutral black. They didn't even know what that was for.

I think you mean the present. How depressing

 

[DREW WILEY]

There is still a store in the general area which stocks a big selection of darkroom products. But a difference of just 15 miles on our crowded freeways, namely, a Bridge in between, can spell a couple hours of cumulative travel time apart. And that's hard to justify when I can get products from clear across the country in NYC on my doorstep in a single day. I try to support local businesses as much as possible; but sometimes they just don't get it.

People are buying a lot of film from them; but then what? ... They have to take it to yet another location to get it processed and scanned. Ironically, there is still a rental and teaching darkroom facility in that same camera store; but they no longer have anyone on staff that can teach it, so it's shut down for now. But more local high school and junior college darkroom classes are starting back up, so not everything is discouraging.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

There is still a store in the general area which stocks a big selection of darkroom products. But a difference of just 15 miles on our crowded freeways, namely, a Bridge in between, can spell a couple hours of cumulative travel time apart. And that's hard to justify when I can get products from clear across the country in NYC on my doorstep in a single day. I try to support local businesses as much as possible; but sometimes they just don't get it.

People are buying a lot of film from them; but then what? ... They have to take it to yet another location to get it processed and scanned. Ironically, there is still a rental and teaching darkroom facility in that same camera store; but they no longer have anyone on staff that can teach it, so it's shut down for now. But more local high school and junior college darkroom classes are starting back up, so not everything is discouraging.

with the current situation with Spotone and Marshall, it may be worth checking into fountain pen inks. Some ink manufacturers specialize in dark black inks and, I've used them successfully thinned down with alcohol or purified water. They are easy to obtain via Amazon and come in 50 or 60-ml bottles, which will last forever. I used 'take sumi iroshizuku, produced by Pilot. it worked well as a neutral dark black and is permanent!

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's really hard matching print hues with micro pens. The exception would be when you want an absolute dark black for spotting a tiny area of the print. These pens come in various tip sizes and are a lot easier to work with than bottled India ink. But you want to select the "permanent" ink varieties. I use them more for negative spotting than prints; but they do sometimes come in handy for that application too.

I use the Sakura Pigma Micron brand. But even an ultrafine Sharpie pen comes in handy; I always keep those around for all kinds of applications.

But any ink can have a mis-matched sheen when it dries, compared to the print. So again, it's a matter of very conservative usage.