spent fixer ... the poll

[Bob F.]

Originally Posted by Sirius Glass (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
What about pouring the developer into the toilet, then pouring in the stop bath [if you are using stop bath with indicator it turns purple], and then pouring in the hypo? That should bring the pH to about 7.

Steve

That is exactly what my local Environmental Heath Officer advised - well, she said down the drain with lots of water rather than the toilet bowl, but I imagine flushing it a couple of times would do the same job.

On a separate point will people please stop talking about "heavy metals". Look it up: it's meaningless as a description. What do you mean by "heavy metal"? Do you mean "toxic metal"? If so, you are using the wrong term as silver is not listed as a toxic metal.

Or do you mean the transition and similar "solid" metals? If so, Lead is a "heavy metal" and highly toxic to humans; keep it out of the water and the air. Silver is a "heavy metal" and entirely safe for humans (unless half a ton falls on you). Magnesium, zinc and iron are "heavy metals" and are necessary for humans: you would die without them.

If you disagree with any of this, look it up and quote chapter and verse - you have the entire Internet at your disposal. Otherwise, please drop the fear-mongering. All I read in this thread from the "dumping is evil" brigade is a lot of nonsensical hyperbole about force-feeding children fixer and zero facts. Show me the money. Show me where it says that silver in the quantities used by a typical photographer is (a) toxic to higher forms of life and (b) has any significant effect on the bacteria in a municipal waste treatment plant.

The only real expert I have had contact with says it's OK. Several pieces of anecdotal evidence of people using a septic system suggests that there is not a problem even there (and if anyone would know, they would - the smell would be inescapable!).

I'll take my advice from the waste disposal expert - and after doing a bit of my own research 'cos I rarely believe a single-source.

 

[Sirius Glass]

On a separate point will people please stop talking about "heavy metals". Look it up: it's meaningless as a description. What do you mean by "heavy metal"?

Loud Music

Steve

 

[fotch]

It won't take a hundred years here in Washington. Recent studies have shown that in areas that get as much rain as we do, heavy metals can get into the water table in less than 10 years.

So, you're right. I need a backup plan. As it happens, I have one. The fix goes to a silver recovery unit at my local lab.

That is good to hear. My wife and I plan to move to WA. some day.

I have no local lab to take stuff to so I have been thinking of an alternative plan. Using steel wool for silver recovery and evaporation of whats left, and then taking the dried crud to a proper disposal facility once every year or two.

I don't have a darkroom set up yet so I have some time to think this through but I think something needs to be done.

 

[Bob F.]

Loud Music

Steve

Good point - the only practical use of the term

 

[Anon Ymous]

How do you separate the silver from the aluminum? Is it loosely bonded or just slough off? What does the silver sludge look like when it has dried out?

(in case I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I'd really like to know)

Silver in spent fixer is in the form of a salt, silver thiosulphate. Since we're talking about aqueous solutions, you'll have silver ions in it, plus any other ions of whatever else was there. If you put metallic aluminum, it will react with silver thiosulphate, forming aluminum thiosulphate and metallic silver will precipitate. So, instead of Ag+ ions, there will be Al+++ ions. The silver sludge at the bottom will look dark gray.

So, when you have used enough fixer, all of the aluminum foil will disappear and the sludge should be quite pure silver. Pour out most of the fluid. Add water to "rinse" it again. Let the sludge settle again and repeat the process. After some time you'll probably have mostly water with metallic silver at the bottom.

 

[JBrunner]

Silver isn't a "heavy metal" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Silver is fairly inert. In most city systems a home darkroom's contribution over the course of a year won't even come close to equaling the runoff and leaching from natural sources in a day. Above all, consult your local authority regarding proper disposal for your particular area, and stop preaching about things from out of your seat cushion negative.

 

[wogster]

Good point - the only practical use of the term

Gee, and I thought heavy metal was like the 1500lb cast iron wood stove my uncle and his brother moved into his house in the early 1950's. Funny thing is, 45 years later after both my uncle and his brother had died, it took 5 guys and a cutting torch to get it back out again.:rolleyes:

 

[Bob F.]

Gee, and I thought heavy metal was like the 1500lb cast iron wood stove my uncle and his brother moved into his house in the early 1950's. Funny thing is, 45 years later after both my uncle and his brother had died, it took 5 guys and a cutting torch to get it back out again.:rolleyes:

I am continually bombarded with evidence that people back in the day were stronger, cleverer and generally all-round more competent then we are today...

 

[wogster]

I am continually bombarded with evidence that people back in the day were stronger, cleverer and generally all-round more competent then we are today...

Were NOT evolving, in fact I think the opposite is happening, go into a store when the computerized cash register is down, try to buy an item for $10, it has a 6% and 7% tax to be applied (neither tax applies to the other), hand them a $10 bill, a $1 bill and a quarter, ask them how much change you should get.

Wait for the dumb look on their face as they try to figure it out. If you don't know the answer, see below.
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On $10 the first tax is 60 cents, the second 70 cents, for a total of $1.30 in taxes, so you owe them $11.30, you gave them $11.25 so you still owe them 5 cents.

 

[Anon Ymous]

:confused:
You mean the price tags don't include all applicable taxes? That's weird!

 

[Jon King]

:confused:
You mean the price tags don't include all applicable taxes? That's weird!

I was flabbergasted the first time I was in Europe and the taxes were included in the price!! It seems to be one of those things that are can seem perfectly normal either way:confused:.

I believe Canada has both a Federal and provincial sales tax, and in the U.S., the sales taxes are only imposed by states. Since the provincial and state taxes vary, a company can only advertise a single price if it is before taxes, not after.

 

[removed account4]

it is good to know you are consulting your local authorities,
and you follow what they suggest you do ...

the local authorities where i am suggest something completely different.
i am near a stream and a cove ... and in the heat of the summer
the outflow from the local sewer plant is about 60-80% of the stream it
is next to ... so the regulations where i am are a bit different ...

That is exactly what my local Environmental Heath Officer advised - well, she said down the drain with lots of water rather than the toilet bowl, but I imagine flushing it a couple of times would do the same job.

On a separate point will people please stop talking about "heavy metals". Look it up: it's meaningless as a description. What do you mean by "heavy metal"? Do you mean "toxic metal"? If so, you are using the wrong term as silver is not listed as a toxic metal.

Or do you mean the transition and similar "solid" metals? If so, Lead is a "heavy metal" and highly toxic to humans; keep it out of the water and the air. Silver is a "heavy metal" and entirely safe for humans (unless half a ton falls on you). Magnesium, zinc and iron are "heavy metals" and are necessary for humans: you would die without them.

If you disagree with any of this, look it up and quote chapter and verse - you have the entire Internet at your disposal. Otherwise, please drop the fear-mongering. All I read in this thread from the "dumping is evil" brigade is a lot of nonsensical hyperbole about force-feeding children fixer and zero facts. Show me the money. Show me where it says that silver in the quantities used by a typical photographer is (a) toxic to higher forms of life and (b) has any significant effect on the bacteria in a municipal waste treatment plant.

The only real expert I have had contact with says it's OK. Several pieces of anecdotal evidence of people using a septic system suggests that there is not a problem even there (and if anyone would know, they would - the smell would be inescapable!).

I'll take my advice from the waste disposal expert - and after doing a bit of my own research 'cos I rarely believe a single-source.

Silver isn't a "heavy metal" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Silver is fairly inert. In most city systems a home darkroom's contribution over the course of a year won't even come close to equaling the runoff and leaching from natural sources in a day. Above all, consult your local authority regarding proper disposal for your particular area, and stop preaching about things from out of your seat cushion negative.

i hope i am not coming across as preaching about things, that is the last thing
i am trying to do ...

just interested in what people's disposal-situation is

 

[removed account4]

Because?

Developer plus the Stop Bath leave the toilet at somewhat pH 7++. Added the hypo and it will be ~pH 7. The point was that the pH will be neutral or close to it and ready for dilution. Now just add a couple of ball of steel wool, flush and it is good to go!

RAOTFLMAO!!

Steve

pretty much already said this 9 pages ago
except you suggest less water diluting your solution
remember "dilution is part of the solution!"

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

you're almost there steve... you've mentioned the steel wool again!
hope you are friends with a plumber, steel wool might clog your drains!

 

[PVia]

I'll take my advice from the waste disposal expert - and after doing a bit of my own research 'cos I rarely believe a single-source.

Do your own homework, that's right...could the "expert" blindly tell you what photographic chemicals are? If you asked him to name what's in them, could he do that? I would bet that most could not...folks, it doesn't take much to realize that certain chems should be a no-no in the water treatment system, septic tank, gravel driveway, whatever.

Why are people so resistant? The reason "everyone else does it" doesn't cut it, and neither does "the amount is so small compared to XYZ company". It comes down to laziness and a disregard for community.

Take the consequences of your hobby seriously and do the right thing.

 

[JBrunner]

i hope i am not coming across as preaching about things, that is the last thing
i am trying to do ...

just interested in what people's disposal-situation is

I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular. Whenever this subject is broached we tend to get a lot of harumphing and little real information. The real info is with your county water people, or whatever entity is similar. Different places have different needs, different systems, different problems. Here, most of the water already contains silver. You can pan silver out most on most any bend of the rivers that we use. Here, people aren't worried about silver, they are worried about the other crap that is leaching from processing tailings etc. In short, as you said, it's local, and local is where the information exists that applies to an individual with a darkroom. "I read it on the internet" carries no truck whatsoever.

 

[Sirius Glass]

you're almost there steve... you've mentioned the steel wool again!
hope you are friends with a plumber, steel wool might clog your drains!

You broke the code. I have to make sure that people are really reading what is written!

Steve

 

[PVia]

It's not silver per se that is toxic, silver itself being inert. It's certain silver compounds that are trouble and potentially carcinogenic and bioaccumulating.

Would you have negative health implications from wearing a silver ring every day. No. Would you be able to safely rub silver nitrate on your hands every day. No, and it causes blindness if the powder or solution were to enter your eye.

When we talk about silver, we're not talking about just one thing, the pure element. The fact that it is being used i.e., in hospital paint (for its antibacterial properties) has no effect or relation to whether it's safe for humans in all its forms and uses.

 

[MattKing]

The only time I've asked a commercial photographic lab to take my spent fixer, they were unwilling to do so.

None of my researches have yielded any answer as to what the official position is in the Greater Vancouver area.

I'd like a convenient alternative that does not require long term storage.

Matt

 

[2F/2F]

Regardless of what an individual at the local water district might say, I follow "no skin off my back" and "better safe than sorry" philosophies. It is no trouble to take my spent fixer in twice a year, to the same place I need to take batteries, chemicals, and electronics anyhow. I know for sure that it will cause no problems this way, and it gives the county, who I respect and to whom I am grateful for providing the service, a few cents worth of silver. (I used to use steel wool, BTW.) Additionally, I use Kodak data sheet J-300 as a quick guide. It states that fixer should be dumped down the drain after silver recovery, so as not to waste the silver. It also states that the regulations regarding disposal of photo chemicals are federal, from the EPA, not local. Most importantly, it states:

"Another key characteristic of
photoprocessing effluent is the silver
concentration found in photographic
fixer or bleach-fix effluent. Although
the form of silver (silver thiosulfate)
found in photographic processing
effluent is not harmful and is
removed during secondary treatment
at the POTW, it is a good practice to
recover silver before discharging the
effluent. See page 6 for information
on silver recovery."

(This is regarding sewer systems.)

 

[Bob F.]

Do your own homework, that's right...could the "expert" blindly tell you what photographic chemicals are? If you asked him to name what's in them, could he do that? I would bet that most could not...folks, it doesn't take much to realize that certain chems should be a no-no in the water treatment system, septic tank, gravel driveway, whatever.

Why are people so resistant? The reason "everyone else does it" doesn't cut it, and neither does "the amount is so small compared to XYZ company". It comes down to laziness and a disregard for community.

Take the consequences of your hobby seriously and do the right thing.

Yes, she can - that's her job - she may have to look it up (in fact she didn't - she must have known the answer by heart as she replied immediately and we has a 5 minute chat about it) but as photographic fixer is a known waste product that is controlled in industrial quantities it will be well covered in the waste dept. operations manuals, as will the recommended disposal action required in given circumstances.

Other local officials in other parts of the world may have different criteria, I would not know, but I do know this is is taken very seriously locally in London - I have five different recycling containers supplied by my local council for various types of recyclable waste and can be fined if I get it wrong(!). If someone has been told by the appropriate local officials to use a toxic waste dump or recycle it then that is what they should do: that is a matter of local law.

By all means reclaim the silver. I'm certainly not saying that that is not a good idea: it is - just not on any detectable environmental grounds as far as I can tell.

 

[wogster]

Do your own homework, that's right...could the "expert" blindly tell you what photographic chemicals are? If you asked him to name what's in them, could he do that? I would bet that most could not...folks, it doesn't take much to realize that certain chems should be a no-no in the water treatment system, septic tank, gravel driveway, whatever.

Why are people so resistant? The reason "everyone else does it" doesn't cut it, and neither does "the amount is so small compared to XYZ company". It comes down to laziness and a disregard for community.

Take the consequences of your hobby seriously and do the right thing.

The expert probably has "the book", which is a list of hazardous chemicals and how they should be handled, if spilt or disposed of. Think of an MSDS, but compressed to get it all on under one page. Now put a whole bunch of them in one book with a cross referenced index. You would be surprised to see what is actually considered hazardous, for example most perfumes are in an alcohol base. Alcohol burns with a blue flame that is invisible in day light, that makes it hazardous.

Some of the listings are generic, for example photographic fixer is probably generic, it's the silver that makes it hazardous, and not really all that hazardous.

 

[removed account4]

Some of the listings are generic, for example photographic fixer is probably generic, it's the silver that makes it hazardous, and not really all that hazardous.

whether it is hazardous or not hazardous ...
( at least in the states ) the crux of the matter is,
it is a federal law against dispose of it down the drain ...
obviously it is a law that is not easily enforced ...
different localities have their own needs and issues and bigger fish to fry ...
and people will always do what they want to do for whatever reasons they have ...

it is easily seen that people are very adamant about what they
do, and will argue until they are blue in the face how spent fixer is harmless
or the other side will argue adamantly how it is wrong to dump it ...

i still think it is kind of interesting, that almost from the start
4 out of 10 people try to dispose of it somehow
and 6 out of 10 just get rid of it anyhow they can ...

no matter how effortless it is to desilver spent fixer
(how much effort is crumpling a piece or two of aluminium foil,
putting a few pieces of steel wool &C in a bucket for an hour or two,
or saving it up for a year or 6 months and bringing it to the reclamation center )
it isn't like the foil or steel wool costs very much, and it is probably
less work than actually mixing the chemicals to begin with ...

oh well, at least this thread gave people ideas of ways they could
try to desilver their fix, if they want to ...

but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you
you can't make him ...

 

[LMMtn]

I take everything to my local household hazmat collection site. They charge $20 for up to 75lbs. A steal for the peace of mind.

 

[wogster]

whether it is hazardous or not hazardous ...
( at least in the states ) the crux of the matter is,
it is a federal law against dispose of it down the drain ...
obviously it is a law that is not easily enforced ...
different localities have their own needs and issues and bigger fish to fry ...
and people will always do what they want to do for whatever reasons they have ...

it is easily seen that people are very adamant about what they
do, and will argue until they are blue in the face how spent fixer is harmless
or the other side will argue adamantly how it is wrong to dump it ...

i still think it is kind of interesting, that almost from the start
4 out of 10 people try to dispose of it somehow
and 6 out of 10 just get rid of it anyhow they can ...

no matter how effortless it is to desilver spent fixer
(how much effort is crumpling a piece or two of aluminium foil,
putting a few pieces of steel wool &C in a bucket for an hour or two,
or saving it up for a year or 6 months and bringing it to the reclamation center )
it isn't like the foil or steel wool costs very much, and it is probably
less work than actually mixing the chemicals to begin with ...

oh well, at least this thread gave people ideas of ways they could
try to desilver their fix, if they want to ...

but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you
you can't make him ...

One of the problems with pouring it down the drain, forgetting the hazardous part, is that if exposure to certain metals like copper and aluminum will cause the silver to come out and the other metal to be absorbed into the chemistry, then what about your pipes? There are places that use copper drain pipes, although plastic is more common now, and lead was used in the past, there is always the question of whether the fixer could eat the pipe and deposit silver sludge, which not only affects the integrity of the pipe, but can block it as well. Just because visible pipes inside the house are plastic, it doesn't mean the pipe inside the walls, floors and under the yard is. I would hate to need to spend $5,000 getting the basement floor ripped out, because fixer plated copper out of a drain pipe and replaced it with silver sludge.

Desilvering with AL foil is one solution, not sure how accurate it is, or how much silver is pulled out that way. The argument a lot of people have is that they don't use that much, in that case, why not save it up and when you have 10L or 5 gallons, take it to the depot, along with any other left over chemicals, pesticides and other crap that really shouldn't go down the drain or into the garbage.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

whether it is hazardous or not hazardous ...
( at least in the states ) the crux of the matter is,
it is a federal law against dispose of it down the drain ...

It is illegal by federal law for businesses to dispose of silver down the drain in the USA, but not individuals.

Keep in mind that those businesses with silver recovery systems are still going to be releasing some silver in their effluent, but it must be below a certain concentration. They are permitted to have silver in the effluent, but it must be below the concentration on their permit. The permit is usually written by their state government. So even then, they are still dumping some silver down the drain into the sewer system.

Local regulations may not allow individuals to dump it down the drain as well.

You are claiming something that is not necessarily true.