spent fixer ... the poll

[fotch]

....Several pieces of anecdotal evidence of people using a septic system suggests that there is not a problem even there (and if anyone would know, they would - the smell would be inescapable!).
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]I'll take my advice from the waste disposal expert - and after doing a bit of my own research 'cos I rarely believe a single-source.

First, my understanding is even though the silver will kill the bacteria, there is so much in a septic system that it will continue to function. That has been, more or less, my experience. The septic never malfunctioned.

On the other hand, if the septic were to malfunction because the bacteria gets killed off, the effluent then clogs the drainage field, and will need to be replaces. This will be very costly, several thousand dollars.

One other concern, when you go to sell your country home, if the buyer, home inspector, etc, get concerned about the chemicals dumped in the septic, will cause all kinds of headaches for the seller.

In my case, it just seems the easiest safest route to go, is to treat it separately.

JMHO

 

[Kirk Keyes]

but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you
you can't make him ...

That's really not what's happening here. You're trying to guilt the horse into drinking water, when he may not be thirsty and may not need a drink of water.

It's interesting how much shame is being put on people that are actually doing the legally acceptable thing - dumping silver containing solutions into their septic or sewer systems.

A lot of "green" people try to do this to people that they don't see as being as "green" as themselves, and it just gives the people they are trying to convince to "drink the water" a bad taste in their mouths.

 

[DutchShooter]

Having read this topic with some interest I have some doubts on one of the often used solutions: aluminium foil.
To human beings, aluminium ions are (IIRC) more toxic than silver ions...so whether you improve the situation?? I would prefer steel wool to be sure...

I just bring my (untreated) used fix to the local chem drop-off...it's free and I come their once a year anyway with all my savings

 

[Anon Ymous]

...To human beings, aluminium ions are (IIRC) more toxic than silver ions...so whether you improve the situation?? I would prefer steel wool to be sure...

I don't think so. It can be found in many antacid pills. If it was toxic, it would certainly be banned.

 

[DutchShooter]

It's years ago I did my toxicology courses, but I remember there was some debate on the use of aluminium in consumer and pharmaceutical products...but maybe it's not as bad as I remember. But knowing that silver salts are not too toxic as well...I still don't know which one is worse

 

[removed account4]

you are right the federal laws might be for businesses not individuals
and it is up to local regulators to decide what is best for local communities.

It is illegal by federal law for businesses to dispose of silver down the drain in the USA, but not individuals.

Keep in mind that those businesses with silver recovery systems are still going to be releasing some silver in their effluent, but it must be below a certain concentration. They are permitted to have silver in the effluent, but it must be below the concentration on their permit. The permit is usually written by their state government. So even then, they are still dumping some silver down the drain into the sewer system.

Local regulations may not allow individuals to dump it down the drain as well.

You are claiming something that is not necessarily true.

it might not be true, you are right ...

That's really not what's happening here. You're trying to guilt the horse into drinking water, when he may not be thirsty and may not need a drink of water.

It's interesting how much shame is being put on people that are actually doing the legally acceptable thing - dumping silver containing solutions into their septic or sewer systems.

A lot of "green" people try to do this to people that they don't see as being as "green" as themselves, and it just gives the people they are trying to convince to "drink the water" a bad taste in their mouths.

nope i am not trying at all to make people feel guilty, that is not my intention ...

there are lot of options for people to recover silver from their photochemicals
*if they want to, if they need to* it is up to the individual to do what they choose to do ... ( obviously )
this thread was an easy way to educate people what the options are, so if they want to desilver,
or try something different, they can ... ( or want to )
and of course it was an easy way to educate people of a subject
that gets people all freaked out and upset .. on both sides of the issue ..

it just seems like such an easy thing to do, i just wondered why people don't do it .. and i thought maybe it was a different reason than " i don't do it because i don't have to "

 

[removed account4]

One of the problems with pouring it down the drain, forgetting the hazardous part, is that if exposure to certain metals like copper and aluminum will cause the silver to come out and the other metal to be absorbed into the chemistry, then what about your pipes? There are places that use copper drain pipes, although plastic is more common now, and lead was used in the past, there is always the question of whether the fixer could eat the pipe and deposit silver sludge, which not only affects the integrity of the pipe, but can block it as well. Just because visible pipes inside the house are plastic, it doesn't mean the pipe inside the walls, floors and under the yard is. I would hate to need to spend $5,000 getting the basement floor ripped out, because fixer plated copper out of a drain pipe and replaced it with silver sludge.

Desilvering with AL foil is one solution, not sure how accurate it is, or how much silver is pulled out that way. The argument a lot of people have is that they don't use that much, in that case, why not save it up and when you have 10L or 5 gallons, take it to the depot, along with any other left over chemicals, pesticides and other crap that really shouldn't go down the drain or into the garbage.

i often wonder about the corroding the pipes thing as well ...

i guess there are a variety of different things people can do if they feel
it suites their needs ...
i have used a hauler for about 9 years ...
and it works for me ...
but i am learning about different options that might work just as well ...

i know that where i am, using my septic/sewer system ( even though i am very low volume ) is not an option ...

 

[wogster]

i often wonder about the corroding the pipes thing as well ...

i guess there are a variety of different things people can do if they feel
it suites their needs ...
i have used a hauler for about 9 years ...
and it works for me ...
but i am learning about different options that might work just as well ...

i know that where i am, using my septic/sewer system ( even though i am very low volume ) is not an option ...

Here in Toronto, Ontario there is a city service they call the Toxics Taxi, if you have between 10L and 50L of materials, you call 416-392-4330 and schedule a pickup. I am sure that many cities have a similar service. There is no indication that the entire 10L needs to be the same material. So that 5L jug of fixer, 2L of left over spray for the apple tree, where the apples fell off anyway, and 3 old half full cans of lead paint, could all be put out for toxics collection together.

 

[removed account4]

the toxic taxi sounds like a good idea ..
talk about least effort!

 

[nsurit]

Toxic Taxi! Gee, I wonder if they would pick up in Texas.

I'm not yet wet. The dark part of the darkroom is a few weeks away. The suggestions offered here have been helpful.

I guess there is no way to avoid a bit of junk from your wash water getting into the environment, however for the things where I have more control, I will take the steps I can to make sure it doesn't pollute.

Bill Barber

 

[Smudger]

I would like to believe that APUG members are an ethical group of folks, who would like to do their bit for the planet.
After all, how hard is it to chuck your used fix in a bucket with some aluminum foil ?

 

[JBrunner]

There really shouldn't be any "sides" to this. You do what needs to be done according to where you live. It's stupid simple. If you aren't doing it, you're a schmuck, if you are, that's normal behavior for a responsible mature person. You find out with a simple phone call. All the rest is so much prancing.

 

[PVia]

I understand what you're saying, JB...but if it's not cool, it's not cool, no matter where you live.

 

[wogster]

Toxic Taxi! Gee, I wonder if they would pick up in Texas.

I'm not yet wet. The dark part of the darkroom is a few weeks away. The suggestions offered here have been helpful.

I guess there is no way to avoid a bit of junk from your wash water getting into the environment, however for the things where I have more control, I will take the steps I can to make sure it doesn't pollute.

Bill Barber

I don't think they would pick up in Texas, however, try contacting your cities waste collection department, they may operate something similar or have special days when stuff can be put out.

 

[MattKing]

It would be great if each time you use fixer you could pour it through a filter that takes out the silver, than replenish and reuse what is left in the same way that XTOL is replenished.

If possible, the filter should be easily recycled/disposed of, reasonably inexpensive, and include a built in indicator of some type that would show that it was at capacity.

PE, need another project?

Matt

 

[fotch]

Part of the problem may be the way a question was asked, as well as the qualifications of the answerer.

I have found that answers do sometimes change when you ask for written back up.

Try submitting the question in writing and ask for a written response. If it’s not a problem, then you got proof its OK. If on the other hand, if it’s not, you can take this into account.

 

[removed account4]

It would be great if each time you use fixer you could pour it through a filter that takes out the silver, than replenish and reuse what is left in the same way that XTOL is replenished.

If possible, the filter should be easily recycled/disposed of, reasonably inexpensive, and include a built in indicator of some type that would show that it was at capacity.

PE, need another project?

Matt

matt,

from what i have read, you can kind of do this with the silver magnet.
use the fixer until it is "spent", plate the silver out of it, and then use it again ... but personally i have never done anything like this, and re-using and re-using anything makes me nervous, so i would always have a batch of fixer, that is "fresh" for my second batch ....
(just like i do now) ...

 

[cmo]

People at the sewage treatment plants REALLY appreciate if you don't pour old fixer down the drain because it really disturbs biological clarification. In many countries in Europe it would probably be an offense, and it's a waste: you throw away silver.

And silver is the foundation of analog photography.

 

[removed account4]

The silver from spent fixer in a home darkroom doesn't present any substantial danger to municipal sewage systems, bacteria, fish, or the rest of the environment. Why? Because it meets organic sulfides in the sewers. They form silver sulfide, which is highly stable and insoluble, and therefore of little consequence to bacteria living things.

My source for this is an Ilford paper that I unfortunately don't have handy. But you can test the reaction by pouring Kodak Brown Toner into spent fixer: you'll immediately get a black sludge.

something just hit me while i was processing some film tonight ...
you mention sulfides within the sewer system ...
this must work the same or a similar way that
perma wash, hypo eliminator/fixer removers work.
originally based on the seawater-wash methods that were used
to shorten development times during ww2 ... organic sulfides in the water
bonded with floating around fixer ions and grabbed them /removed
them from the print / film ... kind of sort of more complicated than that i would imagine, but this seems to be the sort of thing you are talking about.

as i dumped my wash water in a trickle tank and it slowly filled the bottom half containing iron (to basically do what using steel wool does) ..
i started to think about all the responses in this thread.

this one in particular sunk in, especially after chatting on the phone this morning
with someone who knows an awful lot about photochemistry ...
and he was talking about something very similar, if not the same as you ..

...

john

 

[2F/2F]

something just hit me while i was processing some film tonight ...
you mention sulfides within the sewer system ...
this must work the same or a similar way that
perma wash, hypo eliminator/fixer removers work.
originally based on the seawater-wash methods that were used
to shorten development times during ww2 ... organic sulfides in the water
bonded with floating around fixer ions and grabbed them /removed
them from the print / film ... kind of sort of more complicated than that i would imagine, but this seems to be the sort of thing you are talking about.

as i dumped my wash water in a trickle tank and it slowly filled the bottom half containing iron (to basically do what using steel wool does) ..
i started to think about all the responses in this thread.

this one in particular sunk in, especially after chatting on the phone this morning
with someone who knows an awful lot about photochemistry ...
and he was talking about something very similar, if not the same as you ..

...

john

Kodak states the same that psvensson mentioned in data sheet J-300, though not in as much detail as what he sez the Ilford publication mentioned. They just say that the silver contained in darkroom effluents is in a harmless form as silver thiosulfate, and is handled by sewer treatment facilities no problem. I copied and pasted the part I'm talking about a few pages ago in the thread.

Nonetheless, there are laws against businesses dumping untreated fixer. Exactly how these laws read, one (or more) of us should find out. Do they apply to anyone making a living (or a certain percentage of a living) with their photography, or only to businesses that are actually photo labs? If the former, things may change for many of us if we make money with the pix we work on in our home darkrooms.

Regardless, I stated already what I do, and I think it is a reasonable solution, even as primarily a hobbyist, and with the relatively low volume I deal with at home (about 15 to 20 gallons a year of spent fixer on average).

I am curious, though...

What are the laws for school darkrooms? I know for a fact the school darkroom I used to use (and still do when they let me ) dumped the contents of their pair of 5 gallon fixer trays straight down the drain anytime the hypo check said it was done. Turned the whole tray over and put the whole 5 gallons down the drain like that. I thought it was lazy and irresponsible, but apparently they had run out of 5 gallon bottles to store the spent fixer in, because the janitor who used to take it for silver reclamation had retired.....

 

[removed account4]

Kodak states the same that psvensson mentioned in data sheet J-300, though not in as much detail as what he sez the Ilford publication mentioned. They just say that the silver contained in darkroom effluents is in a harmless form as silver thiosulfate, and is handled by sewer treatment facilities no problem. I copied and pasted the part I'm talking about a few pages ago in the thread.

Nonetheless, there are laws against businesses dumping untreated fixer. Exactly how these laws read, one (or more) of us should find out. Do they apply to anyone making a living (or a certain percentage of a living) with their photography, or only to businesses that are actually photo labs? If the former, things may change for many of us if we make money with the pix we work on in our home darkrooms.

Regardless, I stated already what I do, and I think it is a reasonable solution, even as primarily a hobbyist, and with the relatively low volume I deal with at home (about 15 to 20 gallons a year of spent fixer on average).

I am curious, though...

What are the laws for school darkrooms? I know for a fact the school darkroom I used to use (and still do when they let me ) dumped the contents of their pair of 5 gallon fixer trays straight down the drain anytime the hypo check said it was done. Turned the whole tray over and put the whole 5 gallons down the drain like that. I thought it was lazy and irresponsible, but apparently they had run out of 5 gallon bottles to store the spent fixer in, because the janitor who used to take it for silver reclamation had retired.....

thanks 2f/2f .. i am kind of thick sometimes,
i remember you typed it too, but forgot to mention it ..

around here where they are rather strict,
they read it anyone making any part of their living ...
(or so they said that to me ) ...

schools to follow the same regulations as
the businesses ... and they are happy when they
persuade a hobbyist to do the same thing ...

maybe things have changed in the past few years ...
i'm not too sure.

 

[fotch]

I had saved this post from Photo Engineer in the thread "Kodak Retires Kodachrome Film" and I wonder if it applies here?

" 10:09 AM 7/14/2009
By Photo Engineer
Silver is not all that nasty. In fact, unused diluted blix is similar to many plant fertilizers in ammonia content and nitrogen content. Used blix with silver rapidly decomposes in open air and silver will precipitate out in the soil if it is dumped on the ground. The small quantity of silver should pose no problem then, as it will be rather insoluable in water.

Selenium is quite toxic, but in the form used in toners it can be used by many shellfish in low quantity. Chrome is the only real problem there. Everything else is close to trivial in the amounts we use in our darkrooms.
PE "

 

[removed account4]

since this thread began
i put my money where my mouth is
and i am now a distributer of the silver magnet

if you are interested feel free to contact me ...
thanks

john

 

[MattKing]

John:

I think you mean that you are now a distributor of the silver magnet.

I've got a few questions. They arise from the fact that I have to take down my darkroom after each use, and store everything in a couple of closets/a hallway.

Do you have any pictures/dimensions that you can post here?

How do you store the unit when it is not being used?

Would the fact that I am outside the US complicate dealing with recycling the results? If so, how would we deal with it?

 

[removed account4]

hi matt

yes, bad typo!
thanks

the magnet is about 7-8" long by about 3" wide by about 1-2" deep
i don't have a tape measure handy but that is around its size ...

to use you just put it into a plastic container ( deep tray or pail )
and plug it in to use it, to store you just unplug it and put it wherever you want.
i have one that i plan on using ... and i will just leave it in the 5 gallon pail when it isn't being used ..
it is mailed to you in something like a smallish foam shoebox,
i am sure you can store it in THAT without any problems ...
i will find out for sure but from what i understand there is nothing to sending it to be refined
... you just mail it in and they send you a check. i will contact someone tomorrow
and get the nitty-gritty but from what i have been told ( a few times ) there is no problem ...