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Special order Eastman Double-X in 4x5 sheet.

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StoneNYC

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It's got to be the former; I can't even imagine the minimums Kodak would require to do the latter.

Duncan

I would agree it's probably going to be the former, however it is possible if Kodak decides that the base is just too thin that they wouldn't put it out kind of like the way Milford has refused to make PanF+ available in sheet because the base is too thin, that it's possible they may do the letter rather then refusing altogether.

We will really just have to wait and see, but if people can handle using that horribly thin IR film in sheet form, then I'm sure that they could handle this because I believe that this would still be thicker.

We will just have to wait and see,
 

Gerald C Koch

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Eastman 5222 (Double-X) film does not have to be developed in a special developer D-96. Motion picture film is typically developed to a lower Contrast Index or Gamma than still films hence the use of a softer developer. The reason for this is because prints are made on positive stock which is fairly contrasty. For still use you can use any film developer you wish.

I prefer to rate 5222 at an EI of 400 outdoors to get a bit more contrast and have used Rodinal 1+49 @ 21C and HC-110 1+49 8.5 m @21C. Because this film is on a thicker base it dries flat and tends not to curl.

Kodak lists an RMS Granularity of 14 (very file) which makes it finer grained than Tri-X RMS Granularity 17 (fine).
 
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StoneNYC

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Eastman 5222 (Double-X) film does not have to be developed in a special developer D-96. Motion picture film is typically developed to a lower Contrast Index or Gamma than still films hence the use of a softer developer. The reason for this is because prints are made on positive stock which is fairly contrasty. For still use you can use any film developer you wish.

I prefer to rate 5222 at an EI of 400 outdoors to get a bit more contrast and have used Rodinal 1+49 @ 21C and HC-110 1+49 8.5 m @21C. Because this film is on a thicker base it dries flat and tends not to curl.

Kodak lists an RMS Granularity of 14 (very file) which makes it finer grained than Tri-X RMS Granularity 17 (fine).

Thanks, perhaps it prints better than it scans, (being finer grain than I've experienced) which would make sense since it's an older emulsion formula to my knowledge.

Anyway can not wait to shoot it!! :smile:
 

Gerald C Koch

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Thanks, perhaps it prints better than it scans, (being finer grain than I've experienced) which would make sense since it's an older emulsion formula to my knowledge.

Anyway can not wait to shoot it!! :smile:

In the past Kodak has routinely made unannounced changes in its products. So even though 5222 has been around for a long time (1959) the emulsion has probably changed quite a bit over the years.

From a variety of posts concerning scans many say that unless one is carful and has a good scanner grain can be unduly emphasized. T
 

StoneNYC

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In the past Kodak has routinely made unannounced changes in its products. So even though 5222 has been around for a long time (1959) the emulsion has probably changed quite a bit over the years.

From a variety of posts concerning scans many say that unless one is carful and has a good scanner grain can be unduly emphasized. T

I would completely agree with the comment about not having a good scanner and getting some grainy looking images, but it's not unpleasant it's actually very nice.

And I'm sure I have the crappy as the scanners, compared to others who are interested in for my five, and in fact probably most of them optically print which means they'll have fantastically sharp images. And at some point in my life hopefully in the near future I to will be optically printing and will have better finer images and the ones that come from my scans
 

StoneNYC

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Bump, almost there! Over 150 boxes committed to, just a few more and we'll be able to order! :smile:
 
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Mine will be printed optically (probably scanned for posting on line as well, though). Can't wait to get this stuff!
 

StoneNYC

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Mine will be printed optically (probably scanned for posting on line as well, though). Can't wait to get this stuff!

Hope it happens! It's the weekend so I think there will be an update Monday, then we wait to gear from kodak on numbers and any issues with emulsion, I really hope after all this that there's no issue doing it... I'm so excited at this! I'm in for 3 boxes officially but maybe I'll get 4, I know it will probably not happen again :sad: one time deal, gotta stock up
 
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Wish i could afford more than one box. My wife and middle daughter have to have surgery in the next two weeks so there's not much extra cash kicking around. On top of that, Christmas is around the corner and my oldest daughter is getting married in the Spring. Yeah, I'm pretty much broke right now : ).
 

StoneNYC

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Wish i could afford more than one box. My wife and middle daughter have to have surgery in the next two weeks so there's not much extra cash kicking around. On top of that, Christmas is around the corner and my oldest daughter is getting married in the Spring. Yeah, I'm pretty much broke right now : ).

Yea, I'm concerned about Christmas too, he needs to get that info from Kodak soon.
 

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Latest from Keith

I wanted to send an update on the progress of the co-p for Double X 4x5. Currently I have 79 people committed to 188 boxes. I have been in contact with Kodak alaris about the film. The manufacturing division of Eastman Kodak is currently doing a feasibility study for the film. They need to see if the machinery that cuts sheet film is able to work with the Double X film. This is due to the fact that cinematography is not on the same substrate as sheet film. I think this is great. My past experience with special order Kodak films has been that if it is possible, they will do it for me. With the holiday season it could take some extra time before I find out if this manufacturing procedure is possible. Please be patient as we wait. I also want to thank you for your participation in the endeavor. I will send you new information as I receive it.
 

StoneNYC

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Thanks I'll share it on the other thread too, wish the mod's would combine them lol
 

StoneNYC

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Update on the special order.

"I wanted to send an update on the progress of the co-p for Double X 4x5. Currently I have 79 people committed to 188 boxes. I have been in contact with Kodak alaris about the film. The manufacturing division of Eastman Kodak is currently doing a feasibility study for the film. They need to see if the machinery that cuts sheet film is able to work with the Double X film. This is due to the fact that cinematography is not on the same substrate as sheet film. I think this is great. My past experience with special order Kodak films has been that if it is possible, they will do it for me. With the holiday season it could take some extra time before I find out if this manufacturing procedure is possible. Please be patient as we wait. I also want to thank you for your participation in the endeavor. I will send you new information as I receive it.
Regards;
Keith Canham"
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Threads merged.
 

munz6869

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I am well pleased that Kodak Alaris is responsive to special order stuff. Ilford's annual ULF programme does a lot to endear that company to the Large Format community, and for me, as a Kodak user (mostly), I really want to find reasons to like that company more (r.i.p. Plus-X, etc)...

Bring on the 2 boxes of Double-X I may well have ordered!

Marc!
 

StoneNYC

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Good luck to those who are in, a great film in 35mm that I shoot lots of. Surprised that there wasn't more vitriol about this!

I think all the pessimism would be higher if it once existed in LF and then got pulled before. This is a unique opportunity so it's slightly different. I think when we find out what kodak says we will get more opinion.
 

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I use 400 ISO Rodinal 1:100 19C stand better grain than 3x by some margin in 5222 reels bit of a waste in 5x4 but without +x...

looks to be a stop slower than 3x shooting cassettes back to back

It's toe and shoulder is nice

I've only got 1000 foot left.

hope your boat comes home
 

StoneNYC

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I use 400 ISO Rodinal 1:100 19C stand better grain than 3x by some margin in 5222 reels bit of a waste in 5x4 but without +x...

looks to be a stop slower than 3x shooting cassettes back to back

It's toe and shoulder is nice

I've only got 1000 foot left.

hope your boat comes home

Huh? I think I am not understanding all of what you just said...

Do you mean you shoot Eastman Double-X at EI 400?

And you do a Rodinal 1:100 stand dev, and get better grain by roughly 3 times the amount you see normally with traditional D-96?

And what is a waste in 4x5? I'm not following that part, also not following the "but without +x" either.

Sorry it's morning and maybe I'm stupid haha, thanks for further clarification.
 

miha

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Let me try: I think he shoots Double-X at EI 400. When developed in Rodinal at 1:100 he finds the grain to be finer than what he gets with Tri-X (3x) but it doesn't matter much in 4x5 :crazy:
 

StoneNYC

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Let me try: I think he shoots Double-X at EI 400. When developed in Rodinal at 1:100 he finds the grain to be finer than what he gets with Tri-X (3x) but it doesn't matter much in 4x5 :crazy:

Lol! Oh thanks :smile: few! Lol

It Could matter, if it didn't people wouldn't shoot 20x24 :smile:
 

StoneNYC

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Someone on the other forum asked about an update, so I figured I would post it here as well.

We have sufficient orders to make the actual order, or requests to make the order that is, now we are just waiting on Kodak to do integrity tests to see if it's a viable option to cut the film for sheet, and if they need to do a different backing and if so if that's even possible so we're waiting on Kodak basically..

I suspect we won't hear anything until the end of year or after because of the holiday season I'm sure Kodak is busy.
 

StoneNYC

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So there's good news and bad news, the good news is Kodak got back to us faster than anticipated, the bad news is that the price is much higher than anticipated.

Since I'm the one who started this whole roller coaster in the first place, I wanted to comment.

I agree that the price is high.

I'm curious to know if price total is the final factor or the amount of boxes needed for the order (meaning, I commuted to 3= $300, so if I order 1 at $300 does that cover me?

I'll ask him if they would talk to the non Cine folks to get more advice, but I also wanted to commend everyone for offering to do it in the first place.

Here is the email response, I think it's worth reading.

"Stone;
I really did not believe I would be writing you about an update on the 4x5 Kodak Double X cinematography film before the first of the year, but I received confirmation yesterday evening. The manufacturing division of Eastman Kodak is will to try cutting Double X into 4x5 sheets. They have no experience in trying to cut cine film into sheets. Cine film has a different substrate then sheet films and this could cause problems. I can tell you as a manufacturer of cameras that doing something the very first time has a learning curve as well as risk of material waste during the learning process. Kodak has expressed these concerns as well. They believe that a significant amount of film could be lost while getting a system set up to cut this unusual film. There is also administrative time to create a new notch code and set up a new product in their system. All of this is to say that the film is more expensive then originally estimated. This first time out the cost of a 50 sheet box will be $300.00. (cash price) Although this is higher then I had estimated or hoped, I think Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris should be commended for their willingness to give this a try. (Just a note here, they say that if during the process of trying to make the film the waste becomes too great they reserve the right to cancel the order.)

It is now time for me to start collect the funds. I will deposit the payments in a special account, so that if the order does get cancelled I can return your money. (minus bank or credit card fees) I need the following from you: shipping address, number of boxes needed, and whether you would like to pay by check, money order, credit card, or wire transfer. After I receive the information I will email you an invoice and any other information you need to make payment. If a credit card is used there will be about a 3% fee added and for wire transfers the fee is $30.00. I do not take Paypal. I wish I did not have to put all this about the fees, but I kept the margin on the film so small that I cannot absorb the fees. If you have any questions, please email me back with them. It is a bit crazy here around the holidays, but I will try to get back to you as soon as possible. I know this can be a busy time for you as well. It is going to take some time to get all the funds collected. I will keep you updated as this order progresses.
Regards;
Keith Canham"
 

munz6869

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My opinion is: initially it was 'no risk' - I'd buy and use TXP at the original price anyway. Now it's a significant 'luxury' item (TXP is only $85 a box of 50 in Australia at the moment, for reasons I don't fully comprehend (other film is way more expensive)). So it's gone from AU$1.70 per sheet to AU$6.78 per sheet. Crikey!!

So now I have to give that some... consideration.

Marc!
 
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