Sourcing Ferric Ammonium EDTA in the US

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Unbuiltbread

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Would like to make my own RA-4 and C-41 chems (mostly RA-4), but I cannot find a single source for the Ferric Ammonium EDTA anywhere. I’ve searched Artscraft, Photoforumarly, and major chemical suppliers like Flinn, CarolinaBio, and Fishers.

Without making my own, is my only option to use the alternative Ferric EDTA + Tetrasodium EDTA bleach that PE lists, or seeing if a ferricyanide bromide bleach from ECN-2 works?
 

koraks

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Welcome to Photrio!

or seeing if a ferricyanide bromide bleach from ECN-2 works?

This will work in principle for both C41 and RA4. However, especially with RA4 this will leave the print virtually unprotected against the effects of radicals in the environment, which means the prints will be less stable and more prone to fading and yellowing. If you only want to make prints for short-term display, this is not necessarily a problem. If you want your prints to last and/or intend to sell your work, you evidently should avoid this. Whether similar issues exist with C41 film is a bit of a guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Your location says USA; this means that C41 and RA4 chemistry is relatively easy and cost effective for you to obtain. What's your rationale for DYI-ing these?
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Welcome to Photrio!



This will work in principle for both C41 and RA4. However, especially with RA4 this will leave the print virtually unprotected against the effects of radicals in the environment, which means the prints will be less stable and more prone to fading and yellowing. If you only want to make prints for short-term display, this is not necessarily a problem. If you want your prints to last and/or intend to sell your work, you evidently should avoid this. Whether similar issues exist with C41 film is a bit of a guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Your location says USA; this means that C41 and RA4 chemistry is relatively easy and cost effective for you to obtain. What's your rationale for DYI-ing these?

Mostly bc I think it would be fun. For RA-4 the only chemicals currently available in hobbiest quantities that I could find is the Arista 4L kit for 75$. B&H and freestyle sell huge amounts developer and blix but there’s no chance I’d use them before they go off. The minimum is like 50Liters.

For c-41 I would like to have the option of doing smaller batches, since I don’t shoot that much C41 film. Mostly vision3 for color. I can get cheap chemistry but it would be nice to mix my own small baths for 1-2 rolls like I do with ECN-2.
Plus it would be cheaper and the dry chemistry lasts forever. The longest I’ve pushed C41 dev kits is about 15 rolls over 2 months from an 8 roll kit and the dev times were very long.

Have you ever tried the alt bleach from PE? I could link if you don’t know where to find it
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Ferric Ammonium EDTA / Disodium EDTA? | Photrio.com Photography Forums

It’s in this thread, I think when he talks about image longevity he is talking about the yellowing you mentioned
 

koraks

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Have you ever tried the alt bleach from PE?
Nope, I do have the ingredients for it somewhere. I never bothered with it because the cost per roll for C41 bleach turns out to be so ridiculously low that any effort spent on trying to beat that seemed counterproductive to me. C41 bleach basically lasts forever and can be replenished easily. I really wouldn't bother trying to DIY it.

The longest I’ve pushed C41 dev kits is about 15 rolls over 2 months from an 8 roll kit and the dev times were very long.
There are several posts here on this forum that detail how you can preserve your C41 developer. Even if you buy relatively small (and therefore relatively expensive, on a per-liter basis) volumes, these approaches work.

I think if you run the numbers, you'll realize (like many before you) that DIY-ing this chemistry only makes sense if you live in a location where commercial options are unavailable or prohibitively expensive, or if you're trying to hedge against a contingency where commercial chemistry becomes entirely unavailable. We sometimes see people in e.g. South American countries DIY-ing color chemistry for the former purpose.

I think when he talks about image longevity he is talking about the yellowing you mentioned
No, it's a different mechanism. PE seems to be referring to the effects of incomplete bleaching, i.e. retained silver. That's also a concern, but more so in film (esp. slide film) than in paper - although of course in paper it's also undesirable. There's just not a whole lot of silver in paper so it generally blixes out fairly easily.
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Nope, I do have the ingredients for it somewhere. I never bothered with it because the cost per roll for C41 bleach turns out to be so ridiculously low that any effort spent on trying to beat that seemed counterproductive to me. C41 bleach basically lasts forever and can be replenished easily. I really wouldn't bother trying to DIY it.


There are several posts here on this forum that detail how you can preserve your C41 developer. Even if you buy relatively small (and therefore relatively expensive, on a per-liter basis) volumes, these approaches work.

I think if you run the numbers, you'll realize (like many before you) that DIY-ing this chemistry only makes sense if you live in a location where commercial options are unavailable or prohibitively expensive, or if you're trying to hedge against a contingency where commercial chemistry becomes entirely unavailable. We sometimes see people in e.g. South American countries DIY-ing color chemistry for the former purpose.


No, it's a different mechanism. PE seems to be referring to the effects of incomplete bleaching, i.e. retained silver. That's also a concern, but more so in film (esp. slide film) than in paper - although of course in paper it's also undesirable. There's just not a whole lot of silver in paper so it generally blixes out fairly easily.

I might try that alt bleach just for fun to see how it works. Sourcing just the blix from photography chemical suppliers seems to be the ideal plan. Cinestill sells Kodak RA-4 Blix replenisher in 20L quantities but I’ll have to get a starter batch, or figure out how to use replenisher on its own
 

Samu

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Mostly bc I think it would be fun. For RA-4 the only chemicals currently available in hobbiest quantities that I could find is the Arista 4L kit for 75$. B&H and freestyle sell huge amounts developer and blix but there’s no chance I’d use them before they go off. The minimum is like 50Liters.

For c-41 I would like to have the option of doing smaller batches, since I don’t shoot that much C41 film. Mostly vision3 for color. I can get cheap chemistry but it would be nice to mix my own small baths for 1-2 rolls like I do with ECN-2.
Plus it would be cheaper and the dry chemistry lasts forever. The longest I’ve pushed C41 dev kits is about 15 rolls over 2 months from an 8 roll kit and the dev times were very long.

Have you ever tried the alt bleach from PE? I could link if you don’t know where to find it

With the pricing, there is very little idea in buying RA-4 chemistry in small quantities. You pay the same price for 4 one liter kits you would pay for 50L of pro chemistry. Professional chemistry concentrates, such as Fuji Hunt' s Enviroprint, will keep well. Also, it is not one shot only, as the kits are in reality, but it can be replenished quite easily.
 

Rudeofus

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Cinestill sells Kodak RA-4 Blix replenisher in 20L quantities but I’ll have to get a starter batch, or figure out how to use replenisher on its own

While there are striking (as in: photographically relevant) differences between first/color developer working solution vs. replenisher, the differences are far less significant between bleach/fixer working solution vs. replenisher. Bleach replenisher will be somewhat more acidic than the working solution, which can be addressed with some extra Ammonia solution. Fixer replenisher will be more alkaline than working solution, just add Acetic Acid until it is odorless. In both cases I would not bother with starter.
 

GBS

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Would like to make my own RA-4 and C-41 chems (mostly RA-4), but I cannot find a single source for the Ferric Ammonium EDTA anywhere. I’ve searched Artscraft, Photoforumarly, and major chemical suppliers like Flinn, CarolinaBio, and Fishers.

Without making my own, is my only option to use the alternative Ferric EDTA + Tetrasodium EDTA bleach that PE lists, or seeing if a ferricyanide bromide bleach from ECN-2 works?
@Unbuiltbread Did you ever find a source? I Google this every few months and never get a legitamate answer. I've contacted suppliers about PDTA but they want to sell 25 kilos at a price that's just not worth it. I'm in the same boat: I mix my own C41 (C29 from this group), but the Potassium Ferricynaide bleach from ECN-2 severely stains the negatives. If you look bak through my posts, I had a discussion about this. I tried again last week and rinsed the developer for 20 minutes and used a sodium sulfite clearing bath, but no luck. Still stained. I, too, am interested in my own C41 bleach.
 
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Unbuiltbread

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@Unbuiltbread Did you ever find a source? I Google this every few months and never get a legitamate answer. I've contacted suppliers about PDTA but they want to sell 25 kilos at a price that's just not worth it. I'm in the same boat: I mix my own C41 (C29 from this group), but the Potassium Ferricynaide bleach from ECN-2 severely stains the negatives. If you look bak through my posts, I had a discussion about this. I tried again last week and rinsed the developer for 20 minutes and used a sodium sulfite clearing bath, but no luck. Still stained. I, too, am interested in my own C41 bleach.

Unfortunately no. I just took the L and bought bulk Blix concentrate for c41 and RA-4. it’s cheap fb long lasting enough to be economical. I use Kodak. I had issues with my homebrew ECN-2 staining my phenoix 200 rolls, I thought it was the developer but if you are using C41 dev and ECN-2 bleach it must be the bleach
 

GBS

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Ah, that's too bad. I've been down this road a lot and somehow keep getting to the same point and no one else seems to have that issue.

I reread the comment linked here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c-42-is-kodaks-home-version-of-c-41.89135/post-2373450 and they're using C42 with Pot F bleach and sufficient wash and it works. All kinds of posts all over the internet say Pot F bleach works for C41 and now I'm thinking my issue may be in the subtle difference between C29 and C42.

Are you mixing your own C41 developer? Which version? And where did you get the Blix?
 

pentaxuser

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Excuse my rather vague answer but hasn't Andrew O' Neill developed his own C41 from ingredients? He is based in Canada so I have idea where he gets his stuff from and it may be that as it was only a step in an Alternative print process then it may be that what he needed and what is required for accurate colour and stability are 2 different things

He may even reply if he gets notified of someone mentioning his name

pentaxuser
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Ah, that's too bad. I've been down this road a lot and somehow keep getting to the same point and no one else seems to have that issue.

I reread the comment linked here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c-42-is-kodaks-home-version-of-c-41.89135/post-2373450 and they're using C42 with Pot F bleach and sufficient wash and it works. All kinds of posts all over the internet say Pot F bleach works for C41 and now I'm thinking my issue may be in the subtle difference between C29 and C42.

Are you mixing your own C41 developer? Which version? And where did you get the Blix?
1763152499576.png

Not sure what version of C41 without looking at the sources I used, but this is my recipe. I use Kodak blix replenisher. You can find it in bulk online at the usual photography stores
 

GBS

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Do you need a starter for the blix?

Curious, your formula is similar to the one I have issues with. I wonder if the differneces between the relative Sodiums and Potassiums has something to do with it? This is the one user RPC says works for them with the Pot F bleach.
Screenshot 2025-11-14 at 1.45.20 PM.png
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Do you need a starter for the blix?

Curious, your formula is similar to the one I have issues with. I wonder if the differneces between the relative Sodiums and Potassiums has something to do with it? This is the one user RPC says works for them with the Pot F bleach.
View attachment 411276

The carbonates and bicarbonates are acting as a buffer to help with the pH of the developer. The potassium iodide helps prevent fog so perhaps maybe that would solve things. Although my ECN-2 films processed with my recipe have no fogging.

I’m no chemist either so maybe using the sodium/potassium for both carbonates is better than using a mix of the two idk
 

koraks

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xcuse my rather vague answer but hasn't Andrew O' Neill developed his own C41 from ingredients? He is based in Canada so I have idea where he gets his stuff from and it may be that as it was only a step in an Alternative print process then it may be that what he needed and what is required for accurate colour and stability are 2 different things

He may even reply if he gets notified of someone mentioning his name
He will see a notification if we alert him using the @ - like so: let's summon...@Andrew O'Neill!
I *think* he uses a regular C41 kit though. No DIY chemistry as such.

I wonder if the differneces between the relative Sodiums and Potassiums has something to do with it?
maybe using the sodium/potassium for both carbonates is better than using a mix of the two
In the developer, it won't matter. This will affect solubility of a concentrate, but if you're mixing a working strength developer in one go, it doesn't matter and certainly doesn't explain any fog.
In a blix, this can be a very significant factor. There are some posts from @Photo Engineer that discuss this. IIRC sodium and especially potassium are to be avoided in blixes.

So far most/all people who have complained of fog with a ferricyanide bleach have reported the problem went away by using (1) an acetic acid stop bath followed by (2) a sulfite clearing bath. One perosn (@Spektrum ) has worked out an acetate buffered stop bath with sulfite added to it that can be used as a single step.
 

RPC

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Following the developer, I have used a 2% acetic acid stop bath with 10 g/l sodium sulfite added to it for a couple of minutes, followed by a wash for a couple of minutes, followed by the ferricyanide bleach with no detectible staining. PE (Photo Engineer) has recommended this acid/sulfite bath many times.

I use distilled water to mix home-brew developer, stop bath and ferri bleach.

YMMV, do what works for you.
 

pentaxuser

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koraks I had thought it was a "home-made " developer but we'll know if and when he replies. In fact he processes C41 in one of his videos so the answer lies there but I just haven't bothered to search through his videos yet

pentaxuser
 

koraks

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lawnerd

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Following the developer, I have used a 2% acetic acid stop bath with 10 g/l sodium sulfite added to it for a couple of minutes, followed by a wash for a couple of minutes, followed by the ferricyanide bleach with no detectible staining. PE (Photo Engineer) has recommended this acid/sulfite bath many times.

I use distilled water to mix home-brew developer, stop bath and ferri bleach.

YMMV, do what works for you.

This is what I do now. I like mixing my own chems, I have a PhD and worked as a bench scientist for years so it was a no brainer. The chemical for standard C41 bleach seems impossible to source but ferricyanide is easy to get. I only started doing the sulfite clearing recently and it made a big improvement. I also started shooting vision 3 film which uses ferricyanide as the default bleach.
 

pentaxuser

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Oh yeah, you're right! I forgot about that; thanks for looking it up.

Thanks What surprised me was how few ingredients were needed and how simple it was to make. It appeared to develop the negatives in a satisfactory way as well and also appeared to be the answer to those who either process C41 film rarely so are worried about wastage or danger of limited storage like

However given the amount of user issues we seem to have with obtaining C41 ingredients and then processing problems I admit to having a worry about Andrew's method as it seemed almost too good to be true

So can I ask :1. Are Andrew's ingredients and amounts all that are needed for perfectly satisfactory C41 negatives

2. Does what Andrew refer to as CD-4 come with different names in Europe and the U.K.? I had a look for it and found one stockist in Holland selling to the U.K. but adding the delivery cost to the price pushed up the price quite a lot

3. Would Andrew's amounts that he used for one film actually be OK for several films if used again within say a few hours ?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 
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