Some Reassuring News from Ilford!

[jon.oman]

If worst comes to worst, we can always go back to the wet plate process. Not that I would like to see that.

Jon

 

[Uncle Bill]

All money that they should be spending on advertising, instead of trying to meddle with something that isn't broken in the current line of films.

I don't want R&D. I want statements of intent regarding analog photography, and I want them to try to push their product down everyone's throats.

Why can Ilford keep their product line unhacked for so long? Why can they come out with statements of intent so often? Why can they have a presence in schools and on APUG (like Simon Galley)? Why cannot Kodak and Fuji?

I give Simon high marks for reaching out to Ilford's customers here, acting as spokesperson, sometimes is not an easy job in this community but it's valued.

To my understanding while Kodak does not have an official presence here as far as I can tell, they do monitor the community for issues management purposes.

That leaves me with Fujifilm. I see they are an APUG sponsor but up until now with their discontinuing Neopan/Presto 400 in 120 and letting go of a variety of colour emulsions, they have been largely quiet it's been mostly second hand reports from retailers quoting distributor bulletins.

What I don't know and I can't comment on is which branch of Fujifilm sponsors APUG, is it home office in Japan or one of the country/regional headquarters? Japanese Corporations are run quite differently and nowhere near as open as their North American, European and Ocecanic companies. Witness the massive mess around the Toyota recalls.

With black and white my go to companies are Ilford, Kodak and I dabble with Foma products. I use Fuji a lot for colour film that concerns me a bit. I would much prefer to know what film is staying in the line up than what's going with some certainty I can adjust accordingly.

 

[Rob Skeoch]

I like the Ilford graded paper but they don't offer many grades, at least with the Bromide you can still get the 2, 3, 4 grades. It gives you a bit more flexibility. I like having a few grades in the cupboard.

-rob

 

[Mahler_one]

I like the Ilford graded paper but they don't offer many grades, at least with the Bromide you can still get the 2, 3, 4 grades. It gives you a bit more flexibility. I like having a few grades in the cupboard.

-rob

But Rob...do you note any differences in the final print with the Grades 2 and 3 vs. the Gallerie? NOT disputing that there is a Grade 4 in the Kentmere, but many of us rarely need to go up to such a grade. Not sure that the final print would be much different from one paper to another using Ilford PQ or Multigrade developer.

 

[Photo Engineer]

If worst comes to worst, we can always go back to the wet plate process. Not that I would like to see that.

Jon

Jon;

Wet plate (AFAIK) never achieved the overall quality or speed or sensitivity as the modern dry plate. They did produce beautiful photos, but not with the above characteristics.

If anyone wishes, I can elucidate.....

PE

 

[Mahler_one]

I like the Ilford graded paper but they don't offer many grades, at least with the Bromide you can still get the 2, 3, 4 grades. It gives you a bit more flexibility. I like having a few grades in the cupboard.

-rob

I do note that the Kentmere FB Bromide Graded paper appears to be quite a bit less money then the Gallerie graded paper....am I correct Rob?

 

[hvandam2]

Please enlighten us on modern dry plate

Jon;

Wet plate (AFAIK) never achieved the overall quality or speed or sensitivity as the modern dry plate. They did produce beautiful photos, but not with the above characteristics.

If anyone wishes, I can elucidate.....

PE

PE, I am interested. Coming to photography late in life (at 50) and I can't believe how much I've missed! There is such a rich history and a huge knowledge base.

I would very much like to understand what you call "modern dry plate" as it is something I am interested in doing in the future.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

...late in life (at 50)

50? Late in life??

I don't think so...

Ken

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Ken asked a question a few pages back about Kentmere Bromide papers.

Many thanks for the update, Rob. PM sent.

Ken

 

[Photo Engineer]

PE, I am interested. Coming to photography late in life (at 50) and I can't believe how much I've missed! There is such a rich history and a huge knowledge base.

I would very much like to understand what you call "modern dry plate" as it is something I am interested in doing in the future.

There is a whole forum on Emulsion Making and Coating as well as a video of my methods here on APUG. This thread is not the venue for such a huge topic, as I think you can see.

PE

 

[doughowk]

Kentmere Bromide

My favorite cool-tone paper. Unlike many other FB glossy papers, Bromide paper has surface texture; whereas the others such as Emaks are hard to discern diff to RC paper. Anybody have a developer that will make Bromide slightly warm-tone? If so, I'd do all my enlarging printing on it.

 

[clayne]

My favorite cool-tone paper. Unlike many other FB glossy papers, Bromide paper has surface texture; whereas the others such as Emaks are hard to discern diff to RC paper. Anybody have a developer that will make Bromide slightly warm-tone? If so, I'd do all my enlarging printing on it.

Emaks does NOT look or feel like RC paper at all. Absolutely not. In fact, I know of very little fiber papers which feel like RC. Hold up any graded FB print and it's obvious it's fiber both from the finish and the feel.

 

[Shangheye]

All money that they should be spending on advertising, instead of trying to meddle with something that isn't broken in the current line of films.

I don't want R&D. I want statements of intent regarding analog photography, and I want them to try to push their product down everyone's throats.

Why can Ilford keep their product line unhacked for so long? Why can they come out with statements of intent so often? Why can they have a presence in schools and on APUG (like Simon Galley)? Why cannot Kodak and Fuji?

I have to agree with you 2F. I also think Ilford have a singular advantage...a Focused market. They are B&W and they do that best, and so can sell that image much more effectively. They have created a Niche for themselves, and have re-inforced their position as the go to for quality B&W systems....note I say system, because that is key to the message. In many ways that means they can survive the digital revolution, since B&W has a long way to be threatened by that media, and is a far easier home user based type media.

In my opinion, colour film will have to consolidate, and that will effectively be in both number of films and type available (by type I mean ISO). High ISO colour film is on the way out, having been outperformed by Digital by a long margin (at least in Grain...which I am afraid is not commercially required!). In the end we can fully expect that Fuji and Kodak will have a core set of products built around 3 or four emulsions that will justify the coating runs. They will maintain what B&W sells, but they both realise that their niche is colour (theree is limited other colour competition), and therefore onsolidation is facilitated. I hate to admit it, but why do we need 10 or 15 choices for colour film? We all have our aesthetics, but aesthetics can be modified. Reductions in film variety, reduce invetories (Raw MAterials and possibly products), increases buying power for specific raw materials, and allows for more efficient film runs.

Ektar is a great film, I was not a supporter of a new introduction, simply because I fealt it would compete and hurt existing lines...in reality Kodak have "consolidated" by cross pollinating knowledge and systems from their existing Motion Picture business. If that means they can keep colour film going and more profitable, so be it. It may mean that others in Kodaks portfolio will have to go in time, but that has to be better than no film. I now fully support Ektar and believe that it is one of the greatest introductions in recent times....a personal opinion, but from someone who needed convincing.

None of this is to take away from your incredibly valid comment about advertising and marketing. I often wonder how many people would load film in to their old cameras if they knew film was still around. If I had a penny for every time I am asked by someone who sees a camera hanging around my neck "So do they still make film for that?", I could afford my own film company

we should give Kodak a break. They may be restructuring their portfolio, but they are doing it to meet their new challenges....they could just as easily shut it all down.

To quote Scott...everyone should "Stop Crying and Start Buying"...and I would go further, shoot more...and more...and more, and print more...and more...and more.

And tell people about it, post on digital forums with your film scans...I know of at least two people who have started using film on flickr becasue of my postings, and a closed blog forum I am part of www.lostinfocus.org has become almost completely analog since I joined it....Everything is Possible...

Rgds, Kal

 

[Rob Skeoch]

The Bromide papers are less costly than the Galerie papers are. I don't have the exact numbers since I removed the Galerie off my website a while back.
Myself I switched form Galerie to Bromide because of the cost and available grades. I think the prints look and feel every bit as nice.

-rob

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Rob,

I'm delighted to see you are carrying Kentmere Bromide graded papers! It is one of my favorites and has replaced the Oriental Seagull since its reformulation, which makes it split-tone in selenium :-(

For those interested in my opinion, the Kentmere Bromide delivers rich prints, good mid-tone separation, has a lovely finish and tones to a pleasing hint of brown-eggplant in dilute selenium. It reminds me of the old Ilfobrom papers (not Gallerie, which always seemed a bit soft to me and toned sepia brown in selenium) or the good old pre-reformulation Seagull. Having grade 4 available is a real boon.

FWIW, I've enjoyed printing on Slavich graded bromide papers lately as well. They have a nice zip and tone well in selenium too.

Rob, I'll be ordering Kentmere Bromide from you this summer. Thanks

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

 

[Matt5791]

I really like Harman as a company - incredibly efficient and great to deal with.

I do not like this press release. The undertone is dredful, and extrememly negative. "will make them for the forseeable future"

The message such a press release sends out is these products are on borrowed time. One thing for sure: if you want to scare customers away, present this sort of marketing spin - who wants to buy into a dying medium?

The press release should say something along the lines of Sales strong on traditional products. Ilford still first choice. Ilford Exporting XX% of production. Sales strong in recession etc etc

I'm letting Harman know my opinion.

Matt

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Good job Matt. It would also be useful to have an update with regard to available of Kentmere brand products, the new lith paper, replacements for Kentona and Bromide etc.

Tom

 

[Krzys]

I love Fp4 and have been hunting for the most direct way to buy from Ilford for a long time (20-50 roll bricks of fp4 120 would be delightful)

 

[Sim2]

Hi,

The Ilford website (www.ilfordphoto.com) lists a dealer in Aust who may be able to help:

C R Kennedy & Company Pty Ltd
663 Chapel Street, South Yarra, Vic 3141, Australia
Tel 00 61 3 9823 1578
Fax 00 61 3 9827 7213
Website http://www.crkennedy.com.au

or they say you can contact them direct for non UK sales. Perhaps Silverprint in the UK can export for you?

 

[Mahler_one]

Rob,

I'm delighted to see you are carrying Kentmere Bromide graded papers! It is one of my favorites and has replaced the Oriental Seagull since its reformulation, which makes it split-tone in selenium :-(

For those interested in my opinion, the Kentmere Bromide delivers rich prints, good mid-tone separation, has a lovely finish and tones to a pleasing hint of brown-eggplant in dilute selenium. It reminds me of the old Ilfobrom papers (not Gallerie, which always seemed a bit soft to me and toned sepia brown in selenium) or the good old pre-reformulation Seagull. Having grade 4 available is a real boon.

FWIW, I've enjoyed printing on Slavich graded bromide papers lately as well. They have a nice zip and tone well in selenium too.

Rob, I'll be ordering Kentmere Bromide from you this summer. Thanks

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

Doremus: Thanks for the interesting information about the Kentmere Bromide paper. I read some of the specifications, and was interested to note that there is some "developer" in the emulsion. For those of us who are not as well informed and knowldegeable as you and Rob, can you give us some idea of what "that" means? What "developer" is included in the emulsion, and why? What are the practical effects, if any, of such developer-obviously very few judging from your results!

Thanks.

 

[Ian David]

I love Fp4 and have been hunting for the most direct way to buy from Ilford for a long time (20-50 roll bricks of fp4 120 would be delightful)

Chris, the cheapest way to get hold of a large pile of FP4 in Australia is to buy online from the US (eg B&H). At current prices, you can have 50 rolls of 120 delivered to your door in about 3 days for a total of US$259 (i.e about AU$290) - less than AU$6 per roll.
While the Australian $ is so strong, you could probably do almost as well from the UK.
(You are unlikely to get anything cheaply from CRKennedy in Aus.)

Ian

 

[Ian David]

Even cheaper, about US$240, from Freestyle (although slightly slower by US Priority Mail rather than UPS).

Ian

 

[snowblind]

If I was Mr Kodak or Mr Fuji and saw all these people (the ones that are supposed to be passionate about film, who are their only remining hope of keeping production alive) saying things like "Kodak/Fuji said this and then they did that so now I don't support them anymore", I'd just say "OK, this is too much hassle, I'm out of this rapidly declining business." If you want the stuff, you buy it from whoever is making it, otherwise nobody will be making it. Ilford don't make any colour film/paper and that is what I am most worried about losing.

 

[SilverGlow]

The Ilford press release means nothing. The only thing that will influence Ilford is this question: "Is making film/s profitable?", and at the end of the day, they will go against anything they say in press releases if they have to do cutting, and if they have to go against what they say, it would be irrational for any of us to hold them to their original word and intent.

I find it amazing some of the indifference many Ilford-lovers have toward their competitors like Kodak, Fuji, etc. Lack of competition means higher prices, less selections. If I were an Ilford-snob, I would NEVER want to see the demise of Kodak and Fuji....their leaving the market means my beloved Ilford will cost more.

Competition is good for quality too.

I never use Ilford products, but I would never want to see them leave the market.

Additionally, the presence or absence of a film company here, or in frequent press releases, or on pod casts is largely irrelevent to their film offerings, because again, what they say and what they need to do can often be two different things.

And why are some folks "angry" if a company discontinues their beloved film type? Where does this personal slant come from? Wow! When a company cuts product it should never be taken so personal; it's business. I think companies may truly want to stay in film or be the "last man standing" but things change, markets change, the market is not static, so how the horizon looks today may well change in a week or year.

Lets all hope at least 2 or more companies are the "last to stand". We need the continued competition to keep selection, and quality high, and prices low.

 

[perkeleellinen]

And why are some folks "angry" if a company discontinues their beloved film type?

I imagine it's because of the amount of time it takes to master a film plus the fact that many people try for a consistent look in their work. Having to start again with a new product takes a long time and by implication slows down output. For an amateur this can be a big hassle, for a pro it can mean loss of income. For this reason, you'll notice people tend to be much more 'angry' when a manufacturer gives little or misleading information about a product compared to a phased discontinuance or replacement.