So, Just What Is "Kentmere" Darkroom Paper Supposed To Be ?

[miha]

Thank you , I am not in one of the places where the Ilford 100 and 400 are traditionally sold, so the only ones I have seen came from online sellers. those listings have not been seen lately.

Not long ago these films were not even marketed in the UK, now they are available via several online stores, in Europe as well. In my country, they were available since their introduction in the 90s.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

yes, the product is not existent by looking at he normal Ilford information sources. I recall Simon Galley at one time conformed it did exist but only in "selected markets"

I'm a retailer of film products here in the U.S. and have a wholesale account with Ilford's U.S. distributor, and regularly get product and price sheets of items I can order from them, and PAN 100 and 400 aren't on the list, at least not here in the U.S. I have no doubt that it might be available in other markets, but those markets would either have to pretty small, or not have an easy way to ship to the U.S., else what usually happens is you see them available via eBay, etc, or some online retailer buys enough through a local (to the market) source and just "imports" it and sells it that way, but at a much higher cost due to the added overhead of essentially buying a bunch of it at retail and then turning around and retailing it in a different market. Either way, it's essentially non-existent here in the U.S., unless PAN 100 and 400 are actually Kentmere 100 and 400, just with the Kentmere badge.

 

[cmacd123]

In my country, they were available since their introduction in the 90s.

I guess Slovenia is a "Special Market" And their is really no way to tell if the Ilford PAN 400 is really the same as the Kentmere K400, unless someone were to do an entire series of tests on both products.

Is the Ilford HP5+ actively marketed also in Slovenia?

 

[pentaxuser]

Either way, it's essentially non-existent here in the U.S., unless PAN 100 and 400 are actually Kentmere 100 and 400, just with the Kentmere badge.

I doubt if the two films, Kentmere and Pan, are the same films with the operative word "doubt " . I recall Simon Galley being cagey in his response to the whole issue of Pan film when some was spotted at the 2006 factory tour in Ilford's warehouse That year to the best of my recollection was only a year after the successful Harman management buy-out so Kentmere film was not then produced

Is it impossible/unthinkable that Harman decided to "invent " a new name for Pan film and there is in fact no Kentmere film, except in name? In 2006 I'd have said that this kind of deception or being "economical with the truth" could be dismissed but since then we have a changed ethos in the film market with none of the new players in the film market placing much value in complete honesty and that, frankly, has caused me to be much more cynical than I used to be.

Fake news in all its myriad of guises has made me much more cynical to the extent that I tend to look for the magician's trickery in everything I see or hear.

pentaxuser

 

[Kilgallb]

I found Ilford MGIV (RC) to be completely different from the Kentmere RC paper.

The Kentmere paper in the tray reacts very differently. I found that at about 1:30 seconds the Kentmere blacks suddenly intensify, like a switch going on. I always get better blacks with the Kentmere. The Ilford MGIV has a more gentle change in density.
The MGIV did not change colour with selenium toner, but with Kentmere the blacks intensified.
This leads me to think the two papers are different.

I agree, the new Ilford RC is very similar to the Kentmere. I was comparing Kentmere FIne Lustre to Ilford Satin. I have not toned the Ilford yet so I cannot comment on that.

 

[miha]

I guess Slovenia is a "Special Market" And their is really no way to tell if the Ilford PAN 400 is really the same as the Kentmere K400, unless someone were to do an entire series of tests on both products.

Is the Ilford HP5+ actively marketed also in Slovenia?

Selected, not Special

Yes, the whole range is available though the distributor, sadly nothing has never been actively marketed in regard to analogue photography, but I must say that all the films (Adox, Lomography, Polaroid, as well as the big ones) are readily available through several brick and mortal stores, C41 and E6 films are being developed etc - all in a country of 2 million population! I'm not complaining.

 

[miha]

I doubt if the two films, Kentmere and Pan, are the same films with the operative word "doubt " . I recall Simon Galley being cagey in his response to the whole issue of Pan film when some was spotted at the 2006 factory tour in Ilford's warehouse That year to the best of my recollection was only a year after the successful Harman management buy-out so Kentmere film was not then produced

Is it impossible/unthinkable that Harman decided to "invent " a new name for Pan film and there is in fact no Kentmere film, except in name? In 2006 I'd have said that this kind of deception or being "economical with the truth" could be dismissed but since then we have a changed ethos in the film market with none of the new players in the film market placing much value in complete honesty and that, frankly, has caused me to be much more cynical than I used to be.

Fake news in all its myriad of guises has made me much more cynical to the extent that I tend to look for the magician's trickery in everything I see or hear.

pentaxuser

They are indeed different film. Just looking at the technical data sheet one can see the developing times to be way apart.

 

[AgX]

brick and mortal stores

Most telling...

 

[ced]

I've heard that the loss of Kentmere fibre based papers were a massive event for Bromoil practitioners likened to the loss of a loved one...

 

[Paul Howell]

I was unable to find a data sheet for Pan 100 or Pan 400, all of the ILford branded films as well Kentmere are listed, no Pans.

 

[AgX]

I was unable to find a data sheet for Pan 100 or Pan 400, all of the ILford branded films as well Kentmere are listed, no Pans.

It took my just the 5 seconds to type-in at Google...
https://www.blende7.at/datenblaetter/ilford/Ilford-Pan-100-llford-Pan-400-englisch.pdf (though being old)


As stated by other posters Harman seemingly want to keep the low profile of these films.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I eventually standardized on Kentmere for my RC paper, because the middle grades (0-1-2-3) match with Ilford MG FB, and it's inexpensive.

That way, I can do most of my test printing on RC, and when I have a keeper, the fine-tuning on FB goes really quick.

 

[BMbikerider]

AS far as the Kentmere RC paper. My experience has been that the Kentmere paper is "Faster" than the Illford brand..

There is virtually no difference in speed between MG5 and Kentmere now after the MG5 was introduced I checked each and for a 12x16 print one on Kentmere took 44 seconds and the same print on Ilford took 41 seconds. My eyes, whilst they are getting old still have very good colour vision and the MG5 is, in comparison to Kent mere RC, very much on the warm side of the spectrum. Kentmere is a neutral to cold tone. The neg I used was exposed without any filtration in either case, in other words grade 2

The old MG4 had several inherent faults with the tonal gradation with filtration having a big step between Gd2.5 and Gd3. These steps have now been ironed out with MG5. (Not my words but those of an Ilford tech who gave a talk at my Photo club a year or so ago. Additional changes are the depth of black with MG5 is much deeper than MG4 (Ifords words at the same talk), and again comparing my prints from the same negative bear this out (my test, not words from Ilford)

 

[MattKing]

"Brick and Mortal stores"
Most telling...

Funny, but as best I can tell, not me .

 

[Paul Howell]

It took my just the 5 seconds to type-in at Google...
https://www.blende7.at/datenblaetter/ilford/Ilford-Pan-100-llford-Pan-400-englisch.pdf (though being old)
I used ILford Pan 400 and got Kentmere Pan 400, so thanks, yes indeed it is a totally different film. The only time I recall seeing here in the US was around 2008 when Freestyle was carrying it under a house brand. That lasted a short time, never did buy any as they were sell house branded TriX and Plus X.

 

[Pat Erson]

I agree, the new Ilford RC is very similar to the Kentmere

Thank you.
I got "flaked" to death here the 1st time I expressed that (experience-based) view.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

"Kentmere 100 and 400 film is made, marketed, and sold by Ilford at a lower cost than its Ilford branded film. Is it the same film as the Ilford branded film "

Reading the Kentmere 400 data sheet, no anti-halation layer, all ILford branded film has an anti-halation layer. In my experience Kentmere seem to have a bit more grain. In terms of paper, not sure of what practical difference there are, if it looks good it is good. If you like the results why spend time and energy thinking about it, go out and buy another box and go on printing.

working with anything but the best materials can gt very frustrating and is hardly worth the struggle. Ilford-branded films and papers belong to the best in the world and we can count ourselves lucky that we can still buy it at any price.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I doubt if the two films, Kentmere and Pan, are the same films with the operative word "doubt " . I recall Simon Galley being cagey in his response to the whole issue of Pan film when some was spotted at the 2006 factory tour in Ilford's warehouse That year to the best of my recollection was only a year after the successful Harman management buy-out so Kentmere film was not then produced

Is it impossible/unthinkable that Harman decided to "invent " a new name for Pan film and there is in fact no Kentmere film, except in name? In 2006 I'd have said that this kind of deception or being "economical with the truth" could be dismissed but since then we have a changed ethos in the film market with none of the new players in the film market placing much value in complete honesty and that, frankly, has caused me to be much more cynical than I used to be.

Fake news in all its myriad of guises has made me much more cynical to the extent that I tend to look for the magician's trickery in everything I see or hear.

pentaxuser

Yeah, I don't know. I've personally never seen Ilford Pan 100 or 400, but Kentmere is readily available here in the U.S. Assuming I can actually get my hands on some freshly produced PAN 100 and 400 I'd have no problem with doing some basic comparison tests between the two of them. The internet is rife with claims like APX 100 and 400 are really Kentmere films under the covers. The same goes for the ultra fine extreme films here in the U.S. Without testing, it's hard to tell because almost nobody who would know is actually saying one way or the other.

Personally, I'm of the mind that there's a fair bit of truth to it as does it really make any sense to actually have separate emulsions, or is it more cost effective to re-use and repackage? What benefit is there to have multiple 100 and 400 speed emulsions that really are different emulsions, but outside of branding effectively are the same? It'd be far better to just come up with one really good general purpose 100 speed emulsion and one really good general purpose 400 speed emulsion and use it for all the different brands. I know a lot of people (especially the old timers) take issue with that, but I tend to view it a little differently, in that it gives people who want to support a specific brand an opportunity to actually do so in a meaningful way by buying film under that brand name. You're being allowed to support a given brand by actually putting dollars towards them. The fact that the film is actually made by somebody else, or is really just repackaged is of little consequence when you think of it that way, and at the end of the day... really? If it's good and generally available, who cares?

Now in Ilford's case, PAN 100 and 400 don't really fit in their current product portfolio, which is why its just not available in one of their largest markets, the U.S. Since they were making it before the Kentmere acquisition and Kentmere already had a 100 and 400 speed film, one of the emulsion lines likely had to die as it's just not cost effective to have two similar emulsions, so either PAN 100 and 400 as it was known died and was effectively replaced with Kentmere film, or Kentmere film as it was known died and was effectively replaced by PAN 100 and 400. Without testing, who knows?

 

[Adrian Bacon]

It took my just the 5 seconds to type-in at Google...
https://www.blende7.at/datenblaetter/ilford/Ilford-Pan-100-llford-Pan-400-englisch.pdf (though being old)


As stated by other posters Harman seemingly want to keep the low profile of these films.

All that means is that they were different films 20 years ago. Lets see a current sheet. Is one even available?

 

[cmacd123]

"special Markets proably means those where the manufacturer has no control over the product once it is shipped. and markets where the material has to be sold at lowest cost. the combination means that the distributors may be tempted to reship material to "normal" markets competing with full price product. by having a "special" product, which may indeed be different, means that even of the Special Product ends in major markets it will not displace the prime product.
the PAN film does seem different, but it is unknown how much different from the Kentmere, which again is NOT the same as HP5+ Kentmere seems to be marketed in Prime Markets as a secondary "Economy" line.

 

[DF]

So can I ask, DF, is it any clearer now what Kentmere paper is supposed to be, and if not what still puzzles you?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Now that I've used it for the 1st time, I can't tell any difference from "regular" Ilford RC Glossy (or Multigrade either). Salesman told me it was the same thing - just a marketing thing. Why anyone is bringing up Kentmere films I can not say - we all know they are uniquet from their Ilford "counterparts" > grainier, and a tad cheaper.

 

[MattKing]

As I posted above.
Kentmere papers offer a limited range of sizes, image tones and surfaces.
That makes them much less expensive to market, distribute and stock.
Which makes them ideal for the student and budget oriented hobbyist.
So many people here seem to think that the reason things are costly is that they have costly ingredients.
In most cases, the costs of marketing, distribution and stocking exceed those costs.

 

[AgX]

So many people here seem to think that the reason things are costly is that they have costly ingredients.
In most cases, the costs of marketing, distribution and stocking exceed those costs.

And just this is the reason why one is tempted to assume thar budget secondary-brand film is same as the primary-brand film. By the way, even Agfa used a secondary-brand.

 

[Don_ih]

Assuming I can actually get my hands on some freshly produced PAN 100 and 400 I'd have no problem with doing some basic comparison tests

An internet search shows up a number of US sellers of the Ilford Pan films. You can get it easily enough.

 

[bedrof]

I've been shooting Ilford Pan and Kentmere films since mid noughties. These two look rather different to my eye, though I haven't conducted a proper test. I like Pan400 a lot, and I would prefer it to the HP5+ in most cases.