So, Just What Is "Kentmere" Darkroom Paper Supposed To Be ?

[Lachlan Young]

@BMbikerider Document Art was the stuff - and I think there was a smooth surface matted variant too. Still got some of the G3 Art Deluxe - heavier base than the Document Art & supercoated - not super keen on the base, it has something of a paper towel texture to it, Art 300 is much nicer. I think Art Document, Art Deluxe, Art Bromoil and RC Art were all using the Bromide/ Kenthene emulsion and Art Classic used Kentona. I think Silverprint SE1 is effectively a variant on G2 Bromide/ Kenthene's emulsion - apparently there used to be an SE2, which was Kentona, though at least Polywarmtone can now fill that gap. As for Bromoil itself, it's just another hardened/ crosslinked-relative-to-exposure gelatin matrix that accepts ink/ dye - and in that direction, Collotype is much more interesting to me.

Kentmere's 'G3' was very hard - ISO (R) 60, so nearer G4-5!

I'm not sure if Kodak Australia ever made film.

They did - both B&W and colour. Not that it matters, it's Rochester made Verichrome Pan that was being referred to as far as I can tell.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

An internet search shows up a number of US sellers of the Ilford Pan films. You can get it easily enough.

A google search for "Ilford Pan 100" shows that freestyle has a product page, but unsurprisingly, it's listed as not available for purchase when you go to the page. Digital Truth shows it as available from Amazon, freestyle, and B&H, but when I actually go to those places, it's not actually available for sale, or I get PanF Plus 50 instead. Mining google shopping does show a couple of places as seeming to have it available, though I'd be somewhat wary of the expiration dates of what they have on hand as they're very small shops and can't really be moving that much product. So, yes, it appears to be relatively easy to buy here in the U.S. if you're willing to buy from a lesser known retailer, however, it's not available via the usual big channels because Ilford does not intend to sell it here in the U.S.

 

[markbau]

The anti-halation and substrate differences between late version Verichrome Pan and Plus X Professional meant that they printed entirely differently. They would also account for a difference in staining behavior.
A sales rep working for Kodak Australia would not be likely to know better than the manager in charge of film production in Rochester.
Unless of course, Kodak Australia had a film production line for either film at the time. I'm not sure if Kodak Australia ever made film. I believe Canadian Kodak did at one time. I know that Kodak Ltd. (UK) and Kodak Pathe (France) did.

As I said in my post, this was a sales person in Denver (Colorado) not in Australia. He actually worked at Rochester and visited his Rocky Mountain sales area once a month. Regardless of who you wish to believe, first hand experience using both tells me that the films were quite different.
Regarding Kodak Australasia, I'm pretty sure they never made film at their Melbourne plane (I grew up quite close to it and toured it a few times) They did however package film, where they would get massive rolls of film and put it in cassettes.Those were the days, if you had your Kodachrome in by about 9am you could pick them up same day in the afternoon.
Anyway, I've derailed this thread enough!

 

[BMbikerider]

One last post from me about Kentmere. It was around 1996 when I was on holiday in the area of Staveley I went into the public counter of the Kentmere factory to see if I could buy some paper from them and was really surprised by the.reception area. I have never seen so many very high quality monochrome photographs. It would have rivalled a top level gallery and all for free (plus coffee).
The seemingly antiquated building shown in the picture is due to it's location which is in a conservation area and it had to be built originally from the local stone to blend in with the other village buildings, some of which are over 200 years old.

 

[Craig]

I did a search, and there are only two Kentmere trademarks registered in the UK. Both are owned by Harman Technologies, which has the familiar address in Mobberley.
The first mark was first registered in 1973 and is the 4 K logo with the word Kentmere next to it. This mark applies to Sensitised photographic paper.

The second mark is simply the word Kentmere, first registered in 2008 and applies to Paper, plastic, fabric or film based media used as a printing substrate in ink jet printers.

Anyone would be free to use the word Kentmere in relation to any goods or services that are not covered by the description of use of the two registered marks.

 

[BMbikerider]

I did a search, and there are only two Kentmere trademarks registered in the UK. Both are owned by Harman Technologies, which has the familiar address in Mobberley.
The first mark was first registered in 1973 and is the 4 K logo with the word Kentmere next to it. This mark applies to Sensitised photographic paper.

The second mark is simply the word Kentmere, first registered in 2008 and applies to Paper, plastic, fabric or film based media used as a printing substrate in ink jet printers.

Anyone would be free to use the word Kentmere in relation to any goods or services that are not covered by the description of use of the two registered marks.

Don't forget we are in UK you are in Canada, the copyright terms may be different.

 

[Craig]

Don't forget we are in UK you are in Canada, the copyright terms may be different.

Copyright and Trademark protect different things and are not that same. There are a number of international treaties for Intellectual Property, so the rules around the world are amazingly similar. I have actually worked with UK patents and trademarks, so am familiar with the UK and EU rules.

 

[gorbas]

Verichrome maybe, not necessarily Verichrome Pan. And you can make two (or more emulsions) of different speeds and blend those, and coat as a single layer - or make 3-4 and coat as two layers of various blends etc. If you don't need to coat as discreet layers and can blend/ coat two emulsions as one, you do so (fewer interlayer interactions to negate). It might have been a bit pioneering in the 1930s when multiple layer coatings were a bit of a challenge, but not by the 1950s, let alone today.

Maybe Verichrome Pan formula was changed when they stop production of #828, 127, 620, 116, 122 and other obsolete by then formats and continued with that modified Plus-X? Kodak also made Verichrome (Pan?) in 70mm. Verichrome Pan is still listed, but only in #120, in Kodak Professional products Technical information booklet from 1989.
I personally observed 2 layer emulsion on ORWO NP-7 B/W motion picture negative film. I was able to peel apart top layer of wet emulsion. Did not try it with modern ORWO equivalent N-74 and 75, but I can try it next time when I'm processing Verichrome Pan, have a few more rolls left in a exotic formats.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Maybe Verichrome Pan formula was changed when they stop production of #828, 127, 620, 116, 122 and other obsolete by then formats and continued with that modified Plus-X? Kodak also made Verichrome (Pan?) in 70mm. Verichrome Pan is still listed, but only in #120, in Kodak Professional products Technical information booklet from 1989.

The cessation of the non-120 formats of VP was in the early 1980s (see Shanebrook, 'Making Kodak Film' for details of what formats went when), 120 VP seems to have continued until PX moved to B-38 and both 135 and 120 PX were unified as a single product rather than what were several rather different products: 135PX/ 120 VP, 120/220 PXP and PXT in sheets. The double layer coating was for Verichrome (ortho, not pan), introduced in 1931 - in 1955-56 it became Verichrome Pan and seems to have adopted the same emulsions and layers as Plus-X. Kodak's own advertising in Popular Photography in 1956 all but stated that the then new 135 Plus-X and 120 Verichrome Pan were the same (see screenshot appended). There had been several paradigm leaps in emulsion technology in the intervening decades - not least in terms of control of crystal character/ growth, chemical sensitisation - and dramatically enhanced understanding of strengths/ weaknesses of using multiple layer coatings vis-a-vis blending more controlled (double-jet) emulsions & coating as a single layer.

 

[gorbas]

moved to B-38

Thank you Lachlan for explanation! And what is B-38?

 

[faberryman]

Thank you Lachlan for explanation! And what is B-38?

It is Building 38 at Kodak Park which contains the remaining coating machines.

 

[gorbas]

Interesting! Thank you Faberryman!

 

[BMbikerider]

PAN 100 and 400 are still available alongside the Kentmere films.

Kentmere is a different film. If you check the tone of the film where the emulsion has been removed during fixing , compared to Pan100 and 400 there is a difference. There is no need to pontificate previously voiced opinions and push them as accurate, the only people who will or can say is Ilford/Harman themselves.

 

[BMbikerider]

Not long ago these films were not even marketed in the UK, now they are available via several online stores, in Europe as well. In my country, they were available since their introduction in the 90s.

Both of these films have been available in UK for a long time. I don't know how long because I didn't keep a check. They have in all that time been sold via a limited number of companies one of which is called 'Firstcall' and who are still selling them now.They have had stocks I will hazard a guess for something approaching 10-15 years at least. Certainly before Kentmere was absorbed into the Ilford company.

 

[miha]

Kentmere is a different film.

My point exactly.

 

[miha]

Both of these films have been available in UK for a long time.

Good. In my country since their release in the 1990s.

 

[gone]

Kentmere is Ilford’s “budget” brand meant for the educational market where they sell it for a little less margin in an effort to help students and schools out

Sounds exactly like their scheme with the Arista EDU films.

Frankly, I don't understand the reasoning behind this type of marketing, which is why almost no one does it. Imagine Ford offering a "discount" brand Ford car w/ budget cuts and less good materials and features? They would be stupid to do that, so they don't.

The way Ilford is doing it is diluting the brand name, losing a LOT of public exposure to the brand name, and just obviously confusing buyers, as seen in this thread. Just sell the same dang products with the same label to the schools at a discount and avoid all this.

Keep the one and only brand name, and the increased sales of selling ONE premium product instead of two (and one of them being "less-premium" anyway) means you can lower the prices and sell even more. These guys need a lesson in marketing one-o-one.

 

[grain elevator]

Frankly, I don't understand the reasoning behind this type of marketing, which is why almost no one does it. Imagine Ford offering a "discount" brand Ford car w/ budget cuts and less good materials and features? They would be stupid to do that, so they don't.

Huh? This type of marketing happens everywhere, including the car market, for instance VW/Skoda/Seat. Whether it's helpful or not for the companies I don't know, I suspect that marketing is largely governed by unfalsifiable doctrines anyway, but to some customers having the choice might be beneficial.

 

[BMbikerider]

Sounds exactly like their scheme with the Arista EDU films.

Frankly, I don't understand the reasoning behind this type of marketing, which is why almost no one does it. Imagine Ford offering a "discount" brand Ford car w/ budget cuts and less good materials and features? They would be stupid to do that, so they don't.

The way Ilford is doing it is diluting the brand name, losing a LOT of public exposure to the brand name, and just obviously confusing buyers, as seen in this thread. Just sell the same dang products with the same label to the schools at a discount and avoid all this.

Keep the one and only brand name, and the increased sales of selling ONE premium product instead of two (and one of them being "less-premium" anyway) means you can lower the prices and sell even more. These guys need a lesson in marketing one-o-one.

If you are in the market for a new car and the super deluxe models are out of your pocket but a budget version is available at good discount which will do most of what the super deluxe version will do, but for less money then I may be tempted to go for the budget version. Some cars come equipped with all versions of 'bells and whistles' which are all 'add-ons', cost more and you may not need them. The budget version would win for me every time.

 

[MattKing]

Frankly, I don't understand the reasoning behind this type of marketing, which is why almost no one does it. Imagine Ford offering a "discount" brand Ford car w/ budget cuts and less good materials and features? They would be stupid to do that, so they don't.

I don't know if Ford does this, but Chrysler/Stellantis offers truck chassis lines designed for purchase, customization and sale as, for example, tow trucks or campers or repair vans or whatever.
The result is branded differently.
It costs much more to distribute and market and retail and deliver to a customer a roll of film than it does to manufacture a roll of film. So if another entity wants to undertake the distribution and marketing and retailing of the film, and wants a budget option to do that, why would Harman not agree?