Snowy Alpine Scenes: General Thoughts

[DREW WILEY]

Once they get snow on them, they wouldn't be 18% gray anymore. They'd only be consistent inside the ski lodge. And I can't afford those kind of places. Well, don't want to tempt Matt's hand too much - have no ideal what % his palms are.

 

[Craig]

Bringing this somewhat back on topic, my rule of thumb is for snow in full sun, give 2 stops more exposure than the meter suggests. If it is overcast, such as when it's cloudy and snowing, 1 stop more exposure than the meter suggests.

For example, where I am normal bright sun exposure for ISO400 is 500 F/11. This was shot at 250 F/11, and was a stop off what the meter suggested. Camera was Canon New F1, partial metering screen, metered before the train came along and the dark of the locomotive could influence the meter.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Bringing this somewhat back on topic, my rule of thumb is for snow in full sun, give 2 stops more exposure than the meter suggests. If it is overcast, such as when it's cloudy and snowing, 1 stop more exposure than the meter suggests.

For example, where I am normal bright sun exposure for ISO400 is 500 F/11. This was shot at 250 F/11, and was a stop off what the meter suggested. Camera was Canon New F1, partial metering screen, metered before the train came along and the dark of the locomotive could influence the meter.

View attachment 324218

But you have to be careful you don't overdo it otherwise you'll clip the whites and lose the detail in the snow. This is especially more difficult with chrome film where whites can get easily clipped.

 

[DREW WILEY]

One shoe size DOES NOT fit all. Snow could be one stops above, or seven stops above mid-tone 18% value. Keeping life and sparkle in snow is different than just bagging something which looks like snow generically. I've spent my whole life doing mountain photography. "Rule of thumb" is "malarky".

 

[GregY]

Drew..... your statement is perilously close to "truer words were never spoken."

 

[Sirius Glass]

One shoe size DOES NOT fit all. Snow could be one stops above, or seven stops above mid-tone 18% value. Keeping life and sparkle in snow is different than just bagging something which looks like snow generically. I've spent my whole life doing mountain photography. "Rule of thumb" is "malarky".

+1

Arbitrary assumption lead to generally dull photographs. A prime example is derating film by one stop which assumes all shadows are the same and are interesting.

 

[Craig]

"Rule of thumb" is "malarky".

The OP has no experience metering for snow. Would you sugges they blindly believe the meter? Rules of thumb are not accurate to 3 decimal places in all situations, but a check for what might be in the range of reasonable.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Weather and snow conditons (including brightness) are not themselves reasonable. They're gonna do what they do. There can be falling snow with soft light which even a very limited range film like Pan F can handle; and then ten minutes later the sun comes out, and even an extreme range film like TMY or old Super XX has to be exposed very carefully to keep the highlight detail from shouldering off. Glaciers impose even trickier conditions in bright sun, especially if there are dark rocks in the same scene you want to retain shadow texture in. This is my wheelhouse.

This is the kind of scenario where TTL or automated in-camera metering can be awfully misleading unless one if quite familiar with both their specific film and specific meter. Yeah, I've accidentally dunked my meter in a stream, yet still walked away with not only perfect TMax exposures, but even chrome 4X5's. But that's based on many years of experience in actual metering of analogous conditions.
And believe me, I also learned to seek out lighting favorable to chromes, which allow no more wiggle room than Pan F does with its pronounced S-curve.

So I'm sorry I can't offer much help to those who want to follow the old Box Brownie adage, "Just press the shutter, and we do the rest". A real light meter is one of the best investments an outdoor photographer can ever make. They were invented for a reason.

Otherwise, the individual in question should bracket experiment with his film and meter under VARIOUS representative snow conditions he is likely to encounter, and not just an allegedly generic average example. Even the best paid weatherman on TV can't promise you that kind of thing.

 

[MattKing]

Am heading off to the Alps on Friday

Hope the trip goes well!
For snow, use an incident meter. For really high SLR/SBR scenes, try two exposures - one as recommended by the meter, one 2/3 of a stop less.
If that isn't a choice, look at the snow, take a reflected reading from it, and estimate how many stops brighter than mid-grey (18%) you want the snow to appear in the result. That is how much exposure to add.
And yes, getting to the point where that estimate is straight-forward requires a bit of practice, including some failures and learning from them.
So consider bracketing a bit, and paying close attention (notes?) to the decisions you make, and how the results correlate.

 

[wiltw]

A rule of thumb for a snow scene with reflected light meter...position the palm of your hand to be parallel to the subject you really want to shoot, fill the frame as much as you can (if using TTL meter) with your palm...add +1EV more exposure than is indicated by your reflected light meter.
(That adjusted reading should be equivalent to Matt's suggestion of using an incident meter.)

 

[Tylaar]

So far so good. Some shots taken in Nancy France (-9) and Innsbruck (-3) on the drive down to the Tirol. HP5 shot at 1600 (ID-11 for 21 mins) on the New F1 (24mm F2.8 Canon). Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

 

[DF]

I have shot countless rolls of film under high strong bright sunny days W/snow & ice covering everywhere,
and,
forget the meter.
Sunny F16 rule NEVER failed me using Ilford FP4. Bracket down if you want in half-stop increments - 16 - 11.5 - 11 .....
'Same works for HP5, and even PanF+

 

[Sirius Glass]

So far so good. Some shots taken in Nancy France (-9) and Innsbruck (-3) on the drive down to the Tirol. HP5 shot at 1600 (ID-11 for 21 mins) on the New F1 (24mm F2.8 Canon). Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

You might find the Jiffy Night Calculator useful. I have been using it since it was first published in 1963. It has adjustment for snowy scenes.

Night Exposures - In a Jiffy

I love shooting after sunset - the limited dynamic range of twilight, the rich colors in the sky after the sun has long gone, the twinkling lights of a distant city, the trails of car lights along ...

f-sunny.com

http://www.cppdh.org/download/jiffy-calculator-for-night-light-exposures.pdf

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

You might find the Jiffy Night Calculator useful. I have been using it since it was first published in 1963. It has adjustment for snowy scenes.

Night Exposures - In a Jiffy

I love shooting after sunset - the limited dynamic range of twilight, the rich colors in the sky after the sun has long gone, the twinkling lights of a distant city, the trails of car lights along ...

f-sunny.com

http://www.cppdh.org/download/jiffy-calculator-for-night-light-exposures.pdf

Why not use a digital camera and transfer the exposure settings to the film camera.?

 

[Tylaar]

You might find the Jiffy Night Calculator useful. I have been using it since it was first published in 1963. It has adjustment for snowy scenes.

Night Exposures - In a Jiffy

I love shooting after sunset - the limited dynamic range of twilight, the rich colors in the sky after the sun has long gone, the twinkling lights of a distant city, the trails of car lights along ...

f-sunny.com

http://www.cppdh.org/download/jiffy-calculator-for-night-light-exposures.pdf

Thankyou!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Why not use a digital camera and transfer the exposure settings to the film camera.?

Because I have used it since 1963 with slides including tungsten slide film and never had a bad exposure. As usual there is no need for the bells and whistles of a digital camera when the Jiffy Night Exposure Rule provides a complete answer.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Why not use a digital and transfer settings, Alan? Because digital sensors aren't film! And even films differ from one another, and can in turn be developed differently as needed. Plus a digital camera is a hecka lot bulkier and heavier than a light meter, and way less specific in its readings. I suppose some people shoot b&w on film, but color on digital, in the same outing. So one is welcome to try.
But it's a shotgun approach, not a precise sniper variety. And snow scenes can vary a great deal in intensity, with some contrast conditions being well beyond typical digital capacity, but within the parameters of intelligently used black and white film choices.

 

[Chuck_P]

Because digital sensors aren't film!

Is middle gray from a digital standpoint different than from a film standpoint, meaning not the same as an 18% gray, somewhat less than 18%. Seems I've read that somewhere before, maybe I dreamt it.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Why not use a digital and transfer settings, Alan? Because digital sensors aren't film! And even films differ from one another, and can in turn be developed differently as needed. Plus a digital camera is a hecka lot bulkier and heavier than a light meter, and way less specific in its readings. I suppose some people shoot b&w on film, but color on digital, in the same outing. So one is welcome to try.
But it's a shotgun approach, not a precise sniper variety. And snow scenes can vary a great deal in intensity, with some contrast conditions being well beyond typical digital capacity, but within the parameters of intelligently used black and white film choices.

Because I have used it since 1963 with slides including tungsten slide film and never had a bad exposure. As usual there is no need for the bells and whistles of a digital camera when the Jiffy Night Exposure Rule provides a complete answer.

Drew: We had moved on from snow to night scenes. Using a light meter at night is worthless. Sirius's night scene chart prefigured the setting for various types of night scenes. Of course, with a digital, you can see the scene in the LED display as a good starting point, especially for those who don't have Sirius's calculator. That's the point I was making.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Drew: We had moved on from snow to night scenes. Using a light meter at night is worthless. Sirius's night scene chart prefigured the setting for various types of night scenes. Of course, with a digital, you can see the scene in the LED display as a good starting point, especially for those who don't have Sirius's calculator. That's the point I was making.

Ah but the calculator is free.

 

[Vaughn]

Ah but the calculator is free.

And its light and no batteries!
And sometimes one can use one's spot meter and make an educated guess.
After dark from the hostel rooftop patio, Santiago, Chile. January 2019 about 11pm, my last night and I still had a couple holders with unexposed film!!
5x7, 180mm lens, FP4+, f32 @ 10 minutes, platinum/palladium print

 

[Sirius Glass]

And its light and no batteries!
And sometimes one can use one's spot meter and make an educated guess.
After dark from the hostel rooftop patio, Santiago, Chile. January 2019 about 11pm, my last night and I still had a couple holders with unexposed film!!
5x7, 180mm lens, FP4+, f32 @ 10 minutes, platinum/palladium print

Well done.

I have a Jiffy Calculator in every camera bag, so whatever bag I need, I know that I have it.

 

[DREW WILEY]

My apologies. Where is this thread headed next? Nighttime photography inside igloos and snow caves?

 

[Vaughn]

Exactly -- night time images with snow is what the OP presented us...tis the longest nights of the year! As they said, so far so good!

Ahhhhh...just had another aftershock that shook the house, mild and brief. A 4.1 about 23 miles due south.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, you've been on two different conversations about "rattlers" in the past few days, Vaughn.