Skeptical about Bellini C-41 timing

[muhco3]

Hello

I Purchased Bellini C41 3 bath kit , however the timing seems wrong to me

They mentioned the following timing

Developer 3:15
Bleach 45 seconds to 1 minute
Fixer 1:30 to 2 minutes

Which is way different from Kodak and Fuji three baths kit in the bleach and fixer steps where they call for 6:30 for each .

Has anyone tried the Bellini kit ? or do you have recommendations ?

 

[pentaxuser]

To the best of my recollection there are a number of threads about this It's worth searching for first

pentaxuser

 

[muhco3]

To the best of my recollection there are a number of threads about this It's worth searching for first

pentaxuser

I had a look at them , but none as far as I search mentioned the weird timings

 

[koraks]

Which is way different from Kodak and Fuji three baths kit in the bleach and fixer steps where they call for 6:30 for each .

The 6m30 times were initial C41 times that were used a long time ago. Present-day bleach and fix (and probably bleach-fix) are far faster; they're RA (Rapid Access) chemistry and at typical C41 temperatures, the Bellini times are indeed perfectly sensible. FYI: e.g. Fuji RA lab chemistry uses the same times.

or do you have recommendations ?

Not so much a recommendation, but personally I use Fuji (RA) chemistry and I just use 3m15s for every step; develop, bleach and fix. I don't have to re-set my timer that way and longer bleaching & fixing doesn't hurt a bit, since both steps go to completion anyway. The same would work with the Bellini chemistry.
Also, I would recommend adding a stop bath between develop and bleach; it's not strictly necessary, but in a typical small tank with spiral reels, there's more carry-over from the developer into the next bath. If the bleach is reused without replenishment (also typical for many home users), this means that ultimately the pH of the bleach my start to shift significantly enough to affect its effectiveness. This can be avoided with a simple acetic acid stop bath.

PS: this is from a FUJIFILM C41 Technical Bulletin:

Note the exact same times as those Bellini gave for rapid access processing and RA chemistry: 0:45 bleach, 1:30 fix.

 

[brbo]

As far as I know, Fuji/Kodak also have "Rapid Access" (RA) bleach and fix with similar times.

I would follow manufacturer's instructions unless you have reasons to do otherwise. Of course, extending bleach and fixer times probably won't hurt the negatives...

 

[mshchem]

C-41RA process is what is used for the quick minilab machines. Uses a bleach that typically requires a minute (you can go longer with no harm) and a fixer that requires 1.5 minutes.

If you look for Flexicolor RA bleach and fixer you'll see that Kodak equivalent.

Sounds like you are looking at the Bellini version of the C-41 Rapid Access process.

 

[mshchem]

https://share.google/9a1PrFPn65nNU1Ic5

 

[muhco3]

Also, I would recommend adding a stop bath between develop and bleach; it's not strictly necessary, but in a typical small tank with spiral reels, there's more carry-over from the developer into the next bath. If the bleach is reused without replenishment (also typical for many home users), this means that ultimately the pH of the bleach my start to shift significantly enough to affect its effectiveness. This can be avoided with a simple acetic acid stop bath.

PS: this is from a FUJIFILM C41 Technical Bulletin:

Note the exact same times as those Bellini gave for rapid access processing and RA chemistry: 0:45 bleach, 1:30 fix.

How long should I use the stop bath for ? and should I wash after the stop bath (before fixer )?

 

[muhco3]

Thank you for the advice , I did pay attention to the new RA process . I used before the Fuji Hunt kit that used the standard C41 timings which confused me with the Bellini .

 

[koraks]

How long should I use the stop bath for ? and should I wash after the stop bath (before fixer )?

30 seconds is OK. Stop goes between develop and bleach, fix follows after bleach. You don't have to wash between stop and bleach. It's a good idea to wash between bleach and fix.

 

[mshchem]

Thank you for the advice , I did pay attention to the new RA process . I used before the Fuji Hunt kit that used the standard C41 timings which confused me with the Bellini .

Yes, it's confusing that's for certain. The attitude seems to be to try and keep it "simple" and by doing so makes things even more confusing! Cinestill is the worst case.

 

[muhco3]

30 seconds is OK. Stop goes between develop and bleach, fix follows after bleach. You don't have to wash between stop and bleach. It's a good idea to wash between bleach and fix.

Thank you

Yes, it's confusing that's for certain. The attitude seems to be to try and keep it "simple" and by doing so makes things even more confusing! Cinestill is the worst case.

Indeed it is ! though is seems to many the manufacturer of many of those kit might be the same as I found many similarities in the MSDS .

I have moved from the Blix kit long time ago to the standard C41 process for better results and reduce the margin of error (the culprit being the Blix) , moreover I have got horrendous results from the three bath E6 kit ( I'll try the standard six bath kit soon) as I got very dark slides and severe color shift despite adhering to the recommended temperature and timing ( it was Tetenal kit )

horrendous

 

[brbo]

In the past I used both Fuji Hunt E-6 (6-bath, 7 if you count stabiliser) and Tetenal 3-bath kits and got excellent results in both.

Excellent!

 

[muhco3]

In the past I used both Fuji Hunt E-6 (6-bath, 7 if you count stabiliser) and Tetenal 3-bath kits and got excellent results in both.

Excellent!

Maybe smoothing went wrong during my chemical mixing

 

[Samu]

To put it short, Bellini kit is C-41RANP in a one liter kit. It even substitutes final wash with rinsing solution. Most of the Bellini color kits are same as their products for the commercial labs, with starters added. C-41RANP is by far the most used process in minilabs today.

 

[blee1996]

I have used Bellini C41 1L kit twice in the past (until Kodak came out with 5L kit), and followed Bellini timing as well as their roll capacity. Everything turned out nicely. So from my practical real world experience, you can trust Bellini's published instructions.

 

[muhco3]

To put it short, Bellini kit is C-41RANP in a one liter kit. It even substitutes final wash with rinsing solution. Most of the Bellini color kits are same as their products for the commercial labs, with starters added. C-41RANP is by far the most used process in minilabs today.

Good to know that , I know that Bellini isn't a consumer focused company as I have sent them tens of emails with no answer since over a year ago , I believe their main focus is bulk and corporate sales

 

[muhco3]

I have used Bellini C41 1L kit twice in the past (until Kodak came out with 5L kit), and followed Bellini timing as well as their roll capacity. Everything turned out nicely. So from my practical real world experience, you can trust Bellini's published instructions.

Good to know that , but I have bad news for you , the current Kodak photo chemicals (at least C41 & RA4) isn't made by Kodak anymore , but rather by a company called Photo Systems Inc.
I heard that their kits are great though .
I have tried to contact Photo Systems Inc ignorer to get smaller quantities of chemicals but now one answered me.....

 

[farpointer]

Good to know that , but I have bad news for you , the current Kodak photo chemicals (at least C41 & RA4) isn't made by Kodak anymore , but rather by a company called Photo Systems Inc.
I heard that their kits are great though .
I have tried to contact Photo Systems Inc ignorer to get smaller quantities of chemicals but now one answered me.....

Kodak has been contracting out the production of their brand-name chemicals for years now. Before Photo Systems, it was Sino Promise.

You can order small quantities from them directly or from a bunch of of retailers such as Freestyle:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL

KODAK PROFESSIONAL Photographic Chemistry and Imaging Solutions

kodak.photosys.com

 

[muhco3]

Kodak has been contracting out the production of their brand-name chemicals for years now. Before Photo Systems, it was Sino Promise.

You can order small quantities from them directly or from a bunch of of retailers such as Freestyle:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL

KODAK PROFESSIONAL Photographic Chemistry and Imaging Solutions

kodak.photosys.com

Yes , this was going on since their bankruptcy

 

[koraks]

I have sent them tens of emails with no answer since over a year ago

We see mixed experience in this regard, but at least a few people here on this forum have reported receiving informative and useful responses to their queries from Bellini.

Kodak has been contracting out the production of their brand-name chemicals for years now. Before Photo Systems, it was Sino Promise.

That's technically not 'contracting out', though. Kodak basically divested the photo finishing chemistry business in the process of their bankruptcy and then licensed their name to external, unrelated parties. The key difference between the present situation with PSI and previously Sino Promise is that it appears that communication between Kodak and Sino Promise was for the most part lacking, while it seems that PSI and Kodak seem to be actively collaborating for e.g. the qualification of chemistry. The story is likely a little more involved than this if we also account for the previous Windsor, CO paper mfgr. plant, but I don't think that was involved in the chemistry business.

 

[halfaman]

That's technically not 'contracting out', though. Kodak basically divested the photo finishing chemistry business in the process of their bankruptcy and then licensed their name to external, unrelated parties.

It started before chapter 11.

Kodak photo chemical business was divested in 2006 and sold to Champion, including a multi year supply agreement. Champion was a creditor during bankruptcy and refused to continue supplying, and it is when Tetenal step in.

 

[muhco3]

It started before chapter 11.

Kodak photo chemical business was divested in 2006 and sold to Champion, including a multi year supply agreement. Champion was a creditor during bankruptcy and refused to continue supplying, and it is when Tetenal step in.

wow it seems like a rabbit hole , i thought only Sino Promise and PSI were involved !

 

[pentaxuser]

wow it seems like a rabbit hole , i thought only Sino Promise and PSI were involved !

That's why in the words of 10cc and when doing "The Wall Street Shuffle you gotta stay cool on Wall Street when your index is low; Dow Jones ain't got time for the bums

pentaxuser

 

[muhco3]

That's why in the words of 10cc and when doing "The Wall Street Shuffle you gotta stay cool on Wall Street when your index is low; Dow Jones ain't got time for the bums

pentaxuser

This is so sad what is happening to legacy companies like Kodak ,Agfa, Konica among others , I think the they could saved these companies like they did with General Motors countless of times !!