Single tray processing

[Jack Lusted]

A little help is requested of a newby!
I really like the idea of making some 20x16 prints, but as I have limited space I use a Nova processor which only goes up to 12x16. From time to time mention has been made of single tray, one shot processing. I understand the principle involved, its just a few practical guidelines that I need.
1 I use Ilford Multigrade dev. Would I use the usual 1 to 9 dilution or would a weaker solution/longer developing time be better? Indeed is Ilford Multigrade a suitable dev for this process - alternative recommendations??
2 How much solution would one use for a print? Most print trays have ridges running along them which would take up solution. My guess is one would need at least 1/2 liter for the print to be covered - this does not seem very economical!
3 All the above re. fixer (Hypam).
4 Stop bath - is it necessary?

Thanks for the help!

Jack

 

[JHannon]

I don't have any answers for you but remember seeing a web site about single tray processing.

Here is the link : http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm

I hope it helps, there are other interesting articles there.

--John

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

to do 16x20 prints in a tray, you need at least 2 liters of chemistry to ensure adequate coverage. Remember that the paper (I assume you are printing on fiber paper) will absorb a measurable quantity of chemistry from the developer. If you try to go too light on the chemistry, you'll end up with underdeveloped and/or unevenly developed prints.

I would recommend if you have space in your sink, to pour the chemistry out of the tray between each bath and into a suitable storage container to re-use. If that doesn't work, bite the bullet and get the 16x20 Nova processor. Also remember that chemistry in the open tray will not last as long as it does in your Nova because of the increased surface area, and the volume loss due to draining the tray each time, as well as carryover between steps.

 

[Gerald Koch]

If you are, as you say, a newbie then I would suggest that you hone your skills by making 8x10 prints until you are completely comfortable with that size. Larger size paper like 16x20 is hard to handle even for an experienced printer. Otherwise you are going to waste a lot of expensive supplies.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

For the occasional big print, you might try a print drum and roller base. I can maneuver three 16x20 trays with some difficulty in my little dark/bathroom, but for 20x24, I've got a big drum that I can use on a roller base.

 

[Richard Wasserman]

I picked up a 16x20 Heath/Mitchell Color Canoe recently for just this purpose. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but it looks promising. It's much sturdier than a plastic tray so pouring chemicals back and forth should be pretty easy. Anyone else use one of these? They show up on eBay periodically and go for next to nothing.

Jack, I just noticed that you are in the UK so I suppose the Canoe idea may not be of much use to you. I don't know how popular they were on your side of the water.

Richard Wasserman

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Jack Lusted]
I use the Single-Tray One-Shot process exclusively.

"I really like the idea of making some 20x16 prints,
but as I have limited space ..."

One of a few Best reasons to use Single-Tray One-Shot
processing. The space savings can be tremendous.

"1 I use Ilford Multigrade dev. Would I use the usual
1 to 9 dilution or..."

The usual dilution. How many 8 x 10s would you put
through a liter of that? More than one 16 x 20's
worth I'd guess.


"2 How much solution would one use for a print?
Most print trays have ridges ... My guess is one would
need at least 1/2 liter for the print to be covered ..."

Any one print needs a certain minimum of chemistry
in order to fully develop. To do that in a reasonable
time the dilution cannot be to great. That is if
economy in use of chemistry is an objective.

One tray is all that is needed to do one print. Have
on hand one each Smooth Bottom tray of a few sizes.
Make that two of each if multiple prints of any of the
sizes are to be done in one session.

"3 All the above re. fixer (Hypam)."

A single very dilute fix will give archival results. On
a 16x20 basis the solution volume should not be less
than one liter. For one FB 16x20 use 30 ml of A. Thio.
concentrate or 30 grams of S. Thio.anhydrous. To stir
the very dilute fix try a fold over method. Fold over
rear to front then right to left side. For such large
prints allow 4 and 3 minutes S. and A. Thio.
respectively.

"4 Stop bath - is it necessary?"

Stop is not needed. The developer is more dilute
than usual and the fix is used but once.

Start with small prints and practice your technique. Dan

"Thanks for the help! Jack"

 

[jeroldharter]

I have tried the usual multiple tray method, a Nova 16 x 20 Quad Processor, and the single tray method. I like the single tray best. Takes up much less room, minimal handling of the print, easy to substitute different types of chemistry, etc. Below is my method, mostly plagiarized from HeyLloyd's website.

You could save the fixer for future processing runs but developer is cheaper and does not last so long so I use one shot. Having wide mouth containers is a must for pouring the chemicals back and forth.


Single Tray Processing Method

Chemicals

• Zone VI paper developer, stock solution diluted 1:3
• Kodak Indicator Stop Bath at the recommended dilution
• Ilford Hypam fixer diluted 1:9 as fixer #1
• Ilford Hypam fixer diluted 1:9 as fixer #2
• Heico PermaWash

Each chemical is mixed and stored in a Doran 2-gallon storage container. Each chemical is mixed for a one-shot use. Typically, I use the chemicals over 2 days, unless I exhaust the capacity. For example, I will prepare a 1-gallon batch of chemicals to use for 8x10 inch print processing over the weekend. I will prepare 1.5-gallon of chemistry for 11x14 – 20x24 inch print processing. I use a floating lid for the developer and otherwise I use the standard lid for the rest of the chemicals. The wide opening at the top of the container makes it easy to pour the chemicals back into the container from the processing tray.

Processing Procedure*

• Choose a plastic darkroom tray the same size as (or a bit larger than) the paper being processed.

• Place the exposed photographic paper into the darkroom tray. For subsequent prints, the tray has been rinsed and shake dried but is still damp. That will not affect the subsequent prints.

• Add the developer and start the timer. Process for 2 minutes in the developer. With about 15 seconds remaining in the cycle, I start pouring the developer back into the appropriate container.

• Add the stop bath solution to the developing tray for a cycle of 30 seconds. With about 15 seconds remaining in the cycle, I start pouring the stop bath into the appropriate container.

• Rinse the processing tray and the paper with tempered water. I do this for about three cycles, making sure to circulate the water underneath the sheet of paper. I also make sure to rinse the sides and the lip of the processing tray.

• Add fixer #1 to the processing tray for a cycle of 3 minutes. With about 15 seconds remaining in the cycle, I start pouring the fixer back into the appropriate container.

• Add fixer #2 to the processing tray for a cycle of 3 minutes. With about 15 seconds remaining in the cycle, I start pouring the fixer back into the appropriate container.

• Rinse the processing tray and the paper with tempered water. I do this for about three cycles, making sure to circulate the water underneath the sheet of paper. I also make sure to rinse the sides and the lip of the processing tray.

• Add PermaWash to the processing tray for a cycle of 5 minutes. With about 15 seconds remaining in the cycle, I start pouring the fixer back into the appropriate container.

• Rinse the processing tray and the paper with tempered water. I do this for about three cycles, making sure to circulate the water underneath the sheet of paper. I also make sure to rinse the sides and the lip of the processing tray.

• Placed the rinsed print into the appropriate slot of an archival print washer that has been filled with water. I store the prints from the darkroom session in the print washer until the end of the day or until the washer is full. Then, I wash the prints for approximately 60 minutes.

• Remove each print from the film washer. Clamp one corner and hang dry from line.

* For all of the steps, use continuous agitation in the tray. My darkroom is usually 68-72F so I use the chemicals at ambient room temperature.

 

[Jack Lusted]

Thank you all for your help, I think I'll do some experimenting on some 91/2 x 12's first.
At the moment I'm using an old Nova Tandem which has only 2 slots. It works fine with RC, but as I've recently discovered polywarmtone FB I think double fix might be necessary.

Jack

 

[ricksplace]

This may sound weird, but I use wallpaper trays. They don't use as much solution, and they don't take up much space. I see-saw the prints through each tray instead of just putting the print in a large tray and watching it. I don't get any streaking. Make sure you keep the print moving throught the solution and be sure to dunk the edges. The trays are large enough to process up to 20X24.

The trays are cheap too. Just a few dollars each at your local paint store.

Rick.

 

[Jack Lusted]

Now there's an interesting idea - my initial thought is about damaging the paper, finger marks and the risk of spillage.
It also reminds me of my first attempt at processing a film by see-sawing it in a pudding basin of developer. That was back in '69 when I was 10 or 11. The film was 120 FP4, soup was Johnson Universol, camera was box brownie and the result was a messy carpet, and angry mother and a ruined film...

 

[ricksplace]

Hi Jack.
I got the idea from the see-saw method of developing roll film in trays. I figured why not? You need to keep moving your fingers around so you don't always hold the paper in the same spot. Once you get the hang of it, it is really easy. Good idea to practice with a piece of the paper you are going to use so you can learn how to feed it through the tray without kinking it. Different papers have different stiffness. Don't try it with single weight fibre paper! Can you even get single weight fibre paper in 16X20 anymore? It is actually quite easy once you get the hang of it. I don't kink any of the prints I process in this way, and the developing is as even as any flat tray development. Hold the paper by the short side, it's easier to handle.
My darkroom is fairly small, and the first time I did 16X20, I borrowed tays from a friend. I had those damn trays all over the room since the counter space I have would not handle them all. Now, anything over 11X14, I use the wallpaper trays.

As for spillage, I don't get any. The solution flows down the paper into the tray, it doesn't drip any more than conventional trays. Actually, I lied, you might get spillage when you try to empty the trays! Really hard to carry the trays to the sink to empty them without spilling them.

Rick.

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Jack Lusted]
1 I use Ilford Multigrade dev. Would I use the usual
1 to 9 dilution or would a weaker solution/longer developing
time be better? Indeed is Ilford Multigrade a suitable dev
for this process - alternative recommendations??[/QUOTE]

I gave Ilford's PDF a look. They also suggest a 1:14 dilution
for even greater milage; 60 8 x 10s/per 100ml of concentrate,
3 minutes in the developer. You'll have to play around with
whatever developer you choose. I've arbitrarily set 5
minutes as a maximum preferred time.

I suggest a 1:29 dilution for testing. Start with 250 ml
of solution, on an 8 x 10 basis, and work down. At 125 ml
the dilution will be 1:14. One tip; pre-wet the paper in
that flat bottom tray. Tests I ran on 5 x 7s a few
weeks ago have me thinking as little as 2
ounces may be enough for 8 x 10s.

But for that single bath archival fix, keep the volume up.
A rinse or rinses twixt developer and fix is up to you.

Trays. I've two new 8 x 10s I'll need to return;
not at all flat bottom. Not at all like the picture
they showed. Cesco trays may be the only
Flat Bottoms on the market. Dan

 

[dancqu]

A little help is requested of a newby!
I really like the idea of making some 20x16 prints,
but as I have limited space ... a few practical guidelines
that I need. 1, I use Ilford Multigrade dev. Would I use the
usual 1 to 9 dilution or would a weaker ...
Thanks for the help! Jack

Here is another way to arrive at the correct dilutions.
I suppose you could call it the educated guess-timate
method. Ilford claims 50 8 x 10s from 100 ml of
concentrate at a 1:9 dilution. For a first test
lets be Very Conservative.

Rather than 2 ml allow 5 ml of concentrate per 8 x 10.
So 20 8 x 10s per/liter at 1:9. Or 5, 16 x 20s. Make up
500 ml of developer; 20 ml of it to be concentrate.
The dilution is 1:24. Consider that the developer
is fresh and that Ilford states the capacity is
increased with greater dilution.

I think it may just work and perhaps in as little as
five minutes. The subject is single tray one-shot 16 x 20
processing with space limited. Start out small and test.
Once you've pinned it down you're ready to whip out
16 x 20s. Me too for that matter although 14 x 17
is my current limit. I might make 16 x 20 with an
80mm that will cover 6 x 7. Dan

 

[discotex]

This may sound weird, but I use wallpaper trays.

I don't think it sounds weird at all... In fact it's Ilford's suggested way of processing poster sized prints.

I'm nowhere near being a competent enough printer to justify prints larger than 11x14 as I'm still learning but I was intrigued when I saw the link on the Ilford site.

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/Posterprints.pdf

..Matt

 

[fschifano]

Strictly speaking you don't need an acid stop bath, but you are leaving yourself open to more problems than you are solving by eliminating one from your workflow. Developer and fixer don't get along well together. Carrying active developer over to the fixing bath is a sure way to get a stained print. Of course you could wash practically all the developer out of the print by using enough fresh water for each print to do the job, but often this is not practical. Don't cheap out on the stop bath. Your fixer will last longer if you use it and you greatly lessen the risk of staining. Stop bath is very cheap compared to the cost of 1 sheet of 16x20 paper. If you find the smell of the typical acetic acid stop bath objectionable, use one of the odorless varieties that uses citric acid instead.

 

[ricksplace]

Matt-
I looked at the ilford site in your post. Interesting. I don't curl up the sheet like the pictures show on the ilford site. I just see-saw the print back and forth for about two minutes in the developer, then into the stop for about 30 sec or about 5 or 6 see-saws, then into the fix, and see-saw it for the recommended fixing time, then into the big laundry tub for washing. I keep the print moving in each of the baths.
Good exercise for the deltoids...

Rick.

 

[FujiLove]

I realise I'm picking up an ancient thread here...

Can anyone suggest a suitable tray for single tray processing? Is a flat bottomed tray a requirement, or are the normal trays with ridges okay? I assume the flat bottom ones are preferred because there's less chance of the print slipping out while changing chemicals, but they are a devil to get hold of (at least in the UK). The other issue seems to be rigidity. I'm looking to start off with 16"x20", and wondering how much those trays flex when lifted with a couple of litres of fluid? The Cescolite ones were mentioned on here as a good choice, but again, are like hens teeth over here. Does anyone use the normal Paterson ones with ridges for single tray processing?

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

You need ridges either up or down, but you don't change chemicals. You use a separate tray for developer, stop and fixer. The ridges help the flow of chemicals and stop the paper sticking.

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

Sorry just noticed that you did mention single tray processing.

 

[pdeeh]

I realise I'm picking up an ancient thread here...

Can anyone suggest a suitable tray for single tray processing? Is a flat bottomed tray a requirement, or are the normal trays with ridges okay? I assume the flat bottom ones are preferred because there's less chance of the print slipping out while changing chemicals, but they are a devil to get hold of (at least in the UK). The other issue seems to be rigidity. I'm looking to start off with 16"x20", and wondering how much those trays flex when lifted with a couple of litres of fluid? The Cescolite ones were mentioned on here as a good choice, but again, are like hens teeth over here. Does anyone use the normal Paterson ones with ridges for single tray processing?

I never have a problem with prints slipping out when I'm washing 10x8 or 12x9.5 prints in my 11x14 Paterson trays, and I've never tried handling a 20x16 tray ... but that's a big tray, and I can easily imagine it being a pain in the arse as well as a recipe for a lot of chemicals on the floor trying to handle one full of solutions.

My darkroom space is very limited, so I fully appreciate why single-tray work is appealing, but it's not something I'd care to try.

Not to put you off trying of course, I hope it works out, but just throwing in a couple of thoughts really.

 

[FujiLove]

Yes, it's the single tray method that I'm going to try. My darkroom is really small and there's simply no room for three large trays. I also want to avoid moving large sheets between trays. I already have some standard 12x16 trays, so I think I'll start off with that size and see how I get on. Just need to buy some larger chemical bottles!

 

[Neal]

Der FujiLove,

I use the single tray method for 16x20 and 20x24. Paterson trays and cheap plastic pails. Being completely honest, I use two trays. The second one sits in the laundry room with a Kodak siphon for washing. The key to the rigidity problem is that you don't need to fill the trays as deeply as you would if you were keeping all your chemicals in them. Cheap pails from the home center paint department that nest for storage work nicely.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

 

[FujiLove]

Thanks Neal. I got hold of two fairly thin 20x24" trays today (for £3!), which when stacked together make one really stiff tray. I've already got some high quality 16x20" ones, so I think I'm all set for trays. Also got a set of 2.5l wide mouth bottles with screw caps on order, to store chemicals. Hoping these will be wide enough to easily pour the chemicals back in, but will have to resort to funnels if not.

Now I just need to set up my darkroom again (in the guest bathroom...guests having just left) and get to work!

 

[john_s]

There is an article on single tray processing at Lloyd Erlick's site (and some beautiful portraits):

http://heylloyd.com/technicl/technicl.html