Simulating The Ortho Look With Pan Film

[Andrew O'Neill]

Without repeating all the reasoning I already gave on a different forum, let me cut to the chase, and say that if you want to simulate the Ortho look using ordinary Pan film, the easiest way is to simply stack a medium dark green filter, like a Hoya X1, with a modest blue one, like a 80A or 80B, then test to figure out the combined filter factor, which will probably be somewhere around 3 stops.

...and I'm planning to test that when my 80A comes in

 

[DREW WILEY]

Great!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Great!

Drew, if you have any tips/advice, I'm open. Thanks!

 

[pentaxuser]

Without repeating all the reasoning I already gave on a different forum, let me cut to the chase, and say that if you want to simulate the Ortho look using ordinary Pan film, the easiest way is to simply stack a medium dark green filter, like a Hoya X1, with a modest blue one, like a 80A or 80B, then test to figure out the combined filter factor, which will probably be somewhere around 3 stops.

If this is the case and 3 stops are correct then it largely eliminates any advantage of say a faster film such as HP5+ so in that case it looks as if Ilford Ortho 80 is as good a bet on those occasions when an ortho look is desired

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

There's no way to know the correct cumulative filter factor of sandwiching filters without actual testing per SPECIFIC film. I gave a reasonable hunch per TMax films, which have a little more sensitivity to green than Ilford films, but a little less sensitivity to blue.

As far as just buying Ortho 80 instead, that's not going to be practical if one wants to turn around and take a regular pan film shots alternately too, or when shooting large sizes of expensive sheet film.

Of course, if one wishes to predominantly take only Ortho shots, might as well buy a box of the real deal. But I happen to sometimes like the look or old blue-only sensitive emulsions instead, which calls for a deep blue 47 filter with pan film.
If you tried that with Ortho 80, you'd probably be down to an ASA of only 10 !

Then there are specific grain and curve shape issues which dictate the film choice, so mandate a malleable pan emulsion choice. It's all fun, regardless.

 

[DREW WILEY]

All I can say at this point, Andrew, is that when sandwiching filters, it's always best to use multicoated glass ones screwed together - much less risk of condensation than the other options, especially in your clime.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Taking a cursory look at the transmission spectra for the X1 filter vs the 80A, it looks like stacking the two would cut out a lot of the blue that the 80A transmits. This may or may not be more like the transmission of the #44 filter.

Doremus

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Taking a cursory look at the transmission spectra for the X1 filter vs the 80A, it looks like stacking the two would cut out a lot of the blue that the 80A transmits. This may or may not be more like the transmission of the #44 filter.

Doremus

I'll be using a wratten #47 blue, which shouldn't inhibit the passage of blue passed through the 80A. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is the 32x factor (5 stops) that I will have to add to exposure time, with stacked #47, and #44A.

 

[DREW WILEY]

47 is a color separation filter passing mostly blue only, though not quite as strong as a 47B. In other words, neither green nor red get through. These simulate the look of blue sensitive emulsions, but not Ortho film, which passes both blue and green, but not in the same proportion.

The 44A is quite weak by comparison. The 47 lets just a little bit of green through; the 47B, none.

It's an interesting category of filters. I keep a 47 in my view camera pack, but rarely in a MF kit.

 

[Bill Burk]

It's an excellent thread, full of info, and graphs, but no comparison photos.

Just watch “The Lighthouse” and you’ll be convinced. A cyan filter like the one @Jarin Blaschke used will simulate orthochromatic film. A Wratten No.47 blue separation filter will simulate a blue sensitive film (and that might be what you want).

A cyan CC filter over flash may help you see the effect, if you can’t get an optical quality cyan filter.

 

[pentaxuser]

Just watch “The Lighthouse” and you’ll be convinced. A cyan filter like the one @Jarin Blaschke used will simulate orthochromatic film. A Wratten No.47 blue separation filter will simulate a blue sensitive film (and that might be what you want).

A cyan CC filter over flash may help you see the effect, if you can’t get an optical quality cyan filter.

What make or makes of filter do you look for if you want a cyan filter like the one Jarin Blaschke used. I am based in the U.K. and mention that because what is available in the U.S. is often not obtainable in the U.K.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The SP570 that Blaschke used was custom made. I can get an SP570, but not the exact one that Blaschke used (the SP570 reduced exposure by 1 stop, but the one he had made reduced it by 2/3rd stop, if I recall correctly). The SP570 is quite expensive, and who knows how much they paid for the custom filter. My money is on the 44A producing the same results as the SP570, anyway. I'd rather spend that money on more film!

 

[DREW WILEY]

It also depends on exactly what Ortho film you're trying to mimc. They weren't all the same.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I'll be using a wratten #47 blue, which shouldn't inhibit the passage of blue passed through the 80A. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is the 32x factor (5 stops) that I will have to add to exposure time, with stacked #47, and #44A.

Are you stacking a #47 with an 80A? The rule is, when you stack filters of about the same color, you just get the effect of the stronger filter. Your results with the stack will be no different than the #47 alone.

Doremus

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Just watch “The Lighthouse” and you’ll be convinced. A cyan filter like the one @Jarin Blaschke used will simulate orthochromatic film. A Wratten No.47 blue separation filter will simulate a blue sensitive film (and that might be what you want).

A cyan CC filter over flash may help you see the effect, if you can’t get an optical quality cyan filter.

Jaren Blaschke had a special filter made by Schneider (I believe) to most accurately reproduce the sensitivity of typical cinema orthochromatic film. It was much more than just a cyan filter. The ortho rendering in "The Lighthouse" is very pronounced, with anything red being rendered very dark. The closest we mere mortals have to the filter than Jarin used is likely the #44, but it doesn't transmit all the blue that ortho film is sensitive to.

Doremus

 

[pentaxuser]

The SP570 that Blaschke used was custom made. I can get an SP570, but not the exact one that Blaschke used (the SP570 reduced exposure by 1 stop, but the one he had made reduced it by 2/3rd stop, if I recall correctly). The SP570 is quite expensive, and who knows how much they paid for the custom filter. My money is on the 44A producing the same results as the SP570, anyway. I'd rather spend that money on more film!

Well that settles it for me. Your last sentence, Andrew, certainly reflects my sentiments. In my Scottish family watching the "bawbees" and getting value for money is still our motto

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Well that settles it for me. Your last sentence, Andrew, certainly reflects my sentiments. In my Scottish family watching the "bawbees" and getting value for money is still our motto

pentaxuser

My Gran used to sing this to us kiddies...

Ally Bally Ally Bally Bee
Sittin on your mammy's knee
Greetin for a wee bawbee
Tae buy some Coulter's candy

 

[pentaxuser]

My Gran used to sing this to us kiddies...

Ally Bally Ally Bally Bee
Sittin on your mammy's knee
Greetin for a wee bawbee
Tae buy some Coulter's candy

Aye a great Scottish heritage, Andrew, explaining in a single jaunty verse the nation's dental decay. A tradition that alas is as alive and well as it was in those far-off days

The above emoji will have to do. I couldn't find the Clydeside black humour emoji. The humour that still remains healthy "doon Clydebank" where the ghostly rallying call of Jimmy Reid and sounds of riveters at work can still be heard at midnight after a few "balls of malt"

pentaxuser

 

[BHuij]

Where this technique really shines is with contrastily-shaded foliage and in situations where dark shadows are lit primarily by blue light from the sky. The ortho-sensitivity opens up the shadows gratifyingly. In a pinch, an 80A or 80B color-conversion filter gives results very similar to the 44/44A. I carry a #44 or an 80A/B with me always.

Andrew, thanks for this! Too bad you didn't include an 80A in the test! I'd be interested in that comparison.

Best,

Doremus

If I'm understanding, the shaded areas (lit by blue reflected light) get lightened up by the blue filter, while sunlit areas (lit directly by more yellow-colored sunlight) are simultaneously darkened, resulting in an overall compression of the contrast. Makes sense.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Are you stacking a #47 with an 80A? The rule is, when you stack filters of about the same color, you just get the effect of the stronger filter. Your results with the stack will be no different than the #47 alone.

Doremus

Good point, Doremus. I do recall reading that in one of AA's books. Thanks!

 

[DREW WILEY]

It all depends on the lighting. If it's an overcast day, a blue filter will have an overall effect, and certainly with respect to opposite colors, but not differentially in relation to shadows themselves. But under a blue sky, blue shadows themselves will naturally be lightened.

In conjunction with a 47 filter, just enough non-blue light still gets through that an 80A might have a very slight additional effect. But with an even stronger 47B filter instead, almost nothing but blue light passes. Either way, you're going to simulate old blue-sensitive emulsions, and not Ortho.

The more interesting question is what an 80A will due in tandem with an X1 medium dark green?