Simple C-41-like Developer for Ilford XP2

[albada]

I'm renewing my interest in developers, and I'd like to create a simple developer only for XP2-super that creates dye-clouds, in order to get finer grain than one gets by developing XP2 in a B&W developer. I'm willing to weigh and mix three (possibly four) chemicals shortly before development. I'll use the developer one-shot, so if it self-destructs in a few hours, I don't care. C-41 bleach, fixer, and stabilizer last a long time, so there's no need to scratch-mix those. But true C-41 developer has a short shelf-life (a few weeks), so I want to mix it when used. Color-shifts don't matter because XP2 is black and white.

I started with the C-42 formula published by Haist in volume II, page 597. I removed the sodium bromide, KI, HAS, and anti-calcium, resulting in this 1-liter formula (scroll down if there's a large space below):

Potassium carbonate	37.5 g
Sodium sulfite	4.25 g
CD-4	4.75

I would use this formula well below 100 F degrees, and extend development time, because color-shifts cannot occur. After development, I would do the usual bleach/fix/stabilize.

Any comments about this idea? Would grain be as fine as with true C-41 developer?

Mark Overton

 

[koraks]

Should work OK; I'd mix up a small amount and give it a try. I don't see any glaring issues, at least within the boundaries of your application. Yes, there would be concerns about activity and color rendition, but these aren't relevant in a situation where you can dial in the process to one particular film and not have to worry about color in the first place.

Btw, I wouldn't be too pessimistic about the keeping qualities of C41 developer. Indeed, it stores very well if you keep oxygen away from it - at least Fuji's lab chemistry does. If you mix it yourself, you could always make two stock concentrates, and mix those with water and an appropriate amount of cd4 right before use. I did that for a while before going back to Fuji developer.

 

[Roger Cole]

This is actually a pretty neat idea, at least for those of us who really like XP2. I did C41 and E6 many years ago with a big tub for a holding bath - works but a PITA. Next time I got into photography I bought a Jobo, concentrated on B&W and what little color I did wasn't worth it to me to do myself so I just sent it out. But I have the Jobo and I love XP2 (Super now of course.) Please check back and let us know how this works and the time and temperature you use. I could easily see myself doing this. Of course, there's also Korak's point which was my experience too - C41 developer lasts ok if kept air tight. So also considering I have the Jobo I'm not sure there's much to gain vs just buying regular C41 developer which could also double for an occasional run of color C41.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I would use this formula well below 100 F degrees, and extend development time, because color-shifts cannot occur.

Color shifts apart, would DIR couplers that are essential for enhancing sharpness and highlight compensation of C41 films work optimally at lower temperatures?

 

[Alan Johnson]

Easier still, is there any reason why the potassium carbonate should not be replaced by washing soda?

 

[koraks]

Not really; sodium carbonate would work just as well with the obligatory molar mass conversion if the solution is mixed to working strength and not as a concentrated stock.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Not exactly what you're looking for, but this is an interesting idea that might make less stringent demands on the colour developer as development is done till completion:

Help! Developed color film in Rodinal. How to fix?

I probably should have checked this out earlier, but I'm just playing around, and the film's nothing critical. I have seen some nice results with color film and Rodinal, so I decided to try. I have some cheap expired Fuji 800 which I exposed at 400, and it's sitting in developer now. I do...

www.photrio.com

 

[Alan Johnson]

To give an idea of the development time required for the OP's proposed process, I once developed XP2 super @ EI=400 16m 24C in color developer.
The dye cloud image has very small "grain " for a 400 EI exposure.

 

[pentaxuser]

At the scale shown, this looks very promising Alan. Is it possible to give us a enlarged crop of a larger portion of the negative of may be 10mm square enlarged to say 5x7 inches

Is this a 35m or 120 neg?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Johnson]

XP-2 was the film I started off with for B/W before doing my own processing. It really does have a very fine "grain" in C-41, but they could not reliably make prints without a color cast on color paper.
Attached the full 35 mm negative, sorry but I deleted the full size scan.

 

[albada]

Easier still, is there any reason why the potassium carbonate should not be replaced by washing soda?

Apparently not.
Here, PE stated that "All salts in the Kodak formula are Sodium" (except for KI). In addition, my notes state that "13 parts of potassium carbonate can be substituted to 10 parts of sodium carbonate."
But I worry about the absence of KI (potassium iodide). Apparently, it tames runaway edge-effects. I'm hoping that continuous agitation combined with longer dev-time will reduce Mackie lines to a reasonable level.

 

[pentaxuser]

XP-2 was the film I started off with for B/W before doing my own processing. It really does have a very fine "grain" in C-41, but they could not reliably make prints without a color cast on color paper.
Attached the full 35 mm negative, sorry but I deleted the full size scan.

Thanks. XP2 was made specifically for B&W paper, as far as I know and I didn't realise that using RA4 paper with it to produce b&w prints gave a colour cast. "they" in your case is presumably a commercial lab using RA4 paper?

Just to be clear, your neg is from XP2 and not XP2 Super? Certainly my local mini-lab is able to produce b&w prints on RA4 paper without any colour cast from XP2 Super

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Johnson]

I started off with XP-2 in the 90s and in those days minilab prints from XP-2 tended to have a color cast.
The example I showed was recent on XP-2 super. I am glad to hear that minilabs do a better job of printing B/W on RA-4 now, if yours is typical.
Back to the topic I think the idea is to provide a developer for XP-2 Super that will provide low "grain" over a wide range of EI values.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the reply, Alan. It was just that I was wondering if your comment about the colour cast had any link to the current XP2 Super, assuming that some users may chose to use the developer mentioned at the start but then ask a mini-lab to print b&w on RA4 paper

pentaxuser

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

@albada: Here's a previous attempt at formulating a minimal C-41 developer (using only colour developer, Sodium Sulphite, Potassium Bromide and Sodium Carbonate and optionally Ascorbic Acid to increase life of the developer)

Home-brew C41 Chemistry - CD1

Recently, I came across a substantial amount of what I later discovered to be CD-1/T22/TSS. Most of the formulas that use it are for super fine grain developers, of the A49-type. A few Russian books referred to it as a color developing agent, giving formulas for the old ORWOCOLOR films. Now, as...

www.photrio.com

 

[Roger Cole]

If you have a mini-lab (really, there ARE mini-labs anymore? Seriously, I thought they were long gone. I haven't seen one in more than 15 years)...anyway, if you have one that is producing prints without a color cast they likely have a print channel set up for XP2, or heck I suppose they could have some provision for printing on black and white paper.

The long gone Kodak CN400, or was it 400CN? Anyway, it was a chromogenic black and white film specifically designed to address that problem by incoporating the same orange masking layer used in C41 color negative films.

 

[albada]

@albada: Here's a previous attempt at formulating a minimal C-41 developer (using only colour developer, Sodium Sulphite, Potassium Bromide and Sodium Carbonate and optionally Ascorbic Acid to increase life of the developer)

Home-brew C41 Chemistry - CD1

Recently, I came across a substantial amount of what I later discovered to be CD-1/T22/TSS. Most of the formulas that use it are for super fine grain developers, of the A49-type. A few Russian books referred to it as a color developing agent, giving formulas for the old ORWOCOLOR films. Now, as...

www.photrio.com

Thanks for the link! It's interesting that his skeletal dev lasts about 30 minutes. I could work with that. You've heard of "develop to completion." That dev would be "develop to death" -- you could stand-develop for 45 minutes, with no danger of overdeveloping, because by then the dev would be dead. /2 Anyway, I like his idea of adding a little ascorbic acid instead of HAS. AA is cheap and easily sourced.
That thread also contains this formula for a conventional B&W fine-grain developer: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/home-brew-c41-chemistry-cd1.103217/post-1365256 . Improving that developer would be a fascinating project -- as if I need any more projects.

 

[foc]

The example I showed was recent on XP-2 super. I am glad to hear that minilabs do a better job of printing B/W on RA-4 now, if yours is typical.

XP2 super will print with a colour cast if, printed in a lab on an optical printer or scanned and printed where the B&W setting has not been selected (trying to print like a colour film).

Fuji Frontier minilabs would not do this as the software detects it as a B&W film.

The Kodak BW400Cn film, with the orange mask, caused colour casts because the operator didn't select the B&W setting and let it print as if it was a colour film.

Minilabs can print B&W on colour paper no problem, with just the push of a button. (just like in Photoshop you can select desaturation)

If you have a mini-lab (really, there ARE mini-labs anymore? Seriously, I thought they were long gone. I haven't seen one in more than 15 years)

I did a quick Google for my own country, Ireland, and I got 6 labs offering film developing. All 6 are operating minilab equipment ( I used to have one until I retired a few years ago)

One off-topic point is that.

• All 6 offer C41 35mm processing,
• 4 offer C41 and B&W 35mm &120,
• 4 offer C41 in 110/126,
• 3 offer C41 APS,
• 2 offer E6 in 35mm & 120 (Up to 4 years ago there was no lab in Ireland offering E6)

 

[koraks]

Minilabs can print B&W on colour paper no problem

It might just be necessary to distinguish between the old analog minilabs (which I don't think are being used for commercial printing anymore across the globe) and the newer digital minilabs that AFAIK scan film and print with RGB lasers onto RA4 paper. The latter will have no difficulty with producing fairly neutral B&W images provided calibration settings are OK for the paper used and chemistry is maintained well. The former will be more prone to problems, in particular operator error. Perhaps someone can put me straight on this if I'm wrong; @Mr Bill maybe?

 

[brbo]

@koraks, that’s exactly how it’s done. It’s scanned with C-41 BW setting (so the ICE is employed), you get inverted BW scan and from there on it’s the same as any other positive scan of any film ((BW, chromogenic BW, C-41, E-6) or digital file - laser exposed on RA-4.

 

[koraks]

Thanks @brbo for confirming my ramblings, much appreciated

 

[Roger Cole]

It might just be necessary to distinguish between the old analog minilabs (which I don't think are being used for commercial printing anymore across the globe) and the newer digital minilabs that AFAIK scan film and print with RGB lasers onto RA4 paper. The latter will have no difficulty with producing fairly neutral B&W images provided calibration settings are OK for the paper used and chemistry is maintained well. The former will be more prone to problems, in particular operator error. Perhaps someone can put me straight on this if I'm wrong; @Mr Bill maybe?

Ah that would be it. It’s been so long since o took film to such a lab (the early to mid 90s) I’m reasonably sure it would have been analog.

 

[koraks]

Yeah, those were the analog mini lab days. I'm not surprised C41 b&w prints would come with free of charge complementary toning

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

For reference, here are some XP2 frames in various color processes, all bleach-bypass. I'll bleach and rescan if anyone's interested.

Top to bottom: C-41 (lost half a frame! oops!), ECN-2, ECP-2; all standard temps, times and stop baths.
Left to right: Box speed (400), 1 over (200), 2 under (1600)

All simultaneously scanned as positive on a V800.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Some individual 1600 full-frame 'corrections' from the original bleach-bypass scan batch.

C-41, ECN-2, ECP-2. Color casts are the real deal, at least relatively. Anyone have XP2 RA-4 prints to compare?