Silver gelatin print pricing

[DREW WILEY]

Pieter - BW complained that "Holland Canal" was his "Moonrise" and that he was sick of printing it. Still, the cumulative quantity was never enough to warrant official numbering. Now you can buy very high quality press reproductions of that image, much better done than inkjet would allow, and clearly sold as reproductions. Brett would have been appalled at the idea of anyone else printing his work, and was on record about it. I sure wouldn't want anyone else printing my negs.

Likewise, AA own "Moonrise" was never editioned, though he did keep track of the total quantity - something like 350, which varied somewhat depending on when they were printed, as well as by size. Misc prints made from his negatives by assistants for sake of volume sales in Best Studios in Yosemite were signed differently. Those once sold for forty dollars in sets of ten (8X10 size) - that's only $4 per print. Now those same prints are still a relative bargain, at least compared to the ones he printed himself.

Carleton Watkins made a lot of his income from mass-produced little stereopticon views of Western scenery. We had a big stack of them in our own attic, and as a child I'd view em using an original 19th red velvet lined viewer. These stereo slides, or analogous mass-produced little prints from his negs, have very little collector value even today. But his personal mammoth plate contact prints in albumen - a medium he was a master of - were very expensive in his own time, and remain so. Few even remain. Most of his collection was destroyed in the 1906 SF earthquake. Now there's a fellow who did Yosemite imagery not only a lot earlier than AA, but better, at least in his personal prints.

But very few people are going to have a particular image catch on as much as these mentioned examples. Yeah, there is a cheesy underbelly to the "art" market as well, but no sense going there. I'd presume most people on a forum like this aren't snake oil sales types, but approach their own work more sincerely, regardless of level of skill.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Eli - even from my very first show, I did just the opposite as you recommend, and did customized hardwood framing tailored to each specific image. Even metal sectional frames I cut myself from bulk lengths purchased wholesale. That allowed the gallery to give me a higher percentage of the sale price than typical, as well as allowing me to make the profit on the framing instead of someone else. It was the deluxe approach, and it was part of my own statement - how I expressly wanted my own prints viewed. And people were willing to pay a premium price for it. An uncommon strategy for sure; but it worked for me. I wanted a properly baited hook.

Yeah, that was in a demographic setting with a lot of really rich folks. But they could collect anything they wanted to, so I was pleased that they liked what I offered. Did I myself get rich doing that? Heck no; it was a lot of work. But those sales did certainly help out during a decade I especially needed it. And people enjoyed having those images on their walls ever since - in my own original frames.

Likewise, I only very briefly tried cutting window mats using cheap handheld cutting devices. Doing it well and efficiently required investing in a serious linear matcutter. I think I spent a thousand dollars for it, and still use it. Yeah, I've always coveted a cutter even more serious than that, but could never quite justify the extra expense.

 

[cirwin2010]

Have you considered selling the photos matted but not framed? Or is it important to you to have full control over the framing and glazing too?

I'm planning to do both. Might have missed that comment? I do like having some control over framing tbh. Sometimes the frame is what can make or break the piece. Like icing on a cake.

 

[cirwin2010]

Making multiple identical copies of a print is new to me. Until this point I only ever make prints for myself (or the occasional gift) and would only end up with the occasional spare. If I revisit a print I typically change something about it. The size, image tone/color, and maybe some improvements with some dodging and burning. The final result might vary depending on how I feel at that moment and what sort of mood I am trying to achieve. Effectively everything I've made so far are a bunch of one-offs.

I'm a bit undecided on the idea of editioning my work. It probably doesn't matter as a hobbiest, but maybe it could if this ends up working out for me. Opinions on scarcity and value aside, a limited run may help keep things fresh for me. I have a reason to move on and not watch the same image develop for the umpteenth time. On the other hand I don't like the idea of artifically limiting myself. Like I mentioned above, I sometimes revist work and I might want to share that. Eli Griggs' comment on "open editions" might be the way to go to give me more freedom, but I still am uncertain. Maybe I should just make what I want to make and not worry about anything else? I still have a ways to go before I set up shop so I have time to think about it more.


Regarding the idea of open editions, how different does a print need to be to constitute a new edition? Would a different sized print count as a different edition?

 

[Pieter12]

Making multiple identical copies of a print is new to me. Until this point I only ever make prints for myself (or the occasional gift) and would only end up with the occasional spare. If I revisit a print I typically change something about it. The size, image tone/color, and maybe some improvements with some dodging and burning. The final result might vary depending on how I feel at that moment and what sort of mood I am trying to achieve. Effectively everything I've made so far are a bunch of one-offs.

I'm a bit undecided on the idea of editioning my work. It probably doesn't matter as a hobbiest, but maybe it could if this ends up working out for me. Opinions on scarcity and value aside, a limited run may help keep things fresh for me. I have a reason to move on and not watch the same image develop for the umpteenth time. On the other hand I don't like the idea of artifically limiting myself. Like I mentioned above, I sometimes revist work and I might want to share that. Eli Griggs' comment on "open editions" might be the way to go to give me more freedom, but I still am uncertain. Maybe I should just make what I want to make and not worry about anything else? I still have a ways to go before I set up shop so I have time to think about it more.


Regarding the idea of open editions, how different does a print need to be to constitute a new edition? Would a different sized print count as a different edition?

Yes, a different size is a different edition. And unless someone asks, you need not specify whether the print is a limited or open edition.

 

[eli griggs]

Regarding the idea of open editions, how different does a print need to be to constitute a new edition? Would a different sized print count as a different edition?

Yes, Editions are uniform and should be marked that way, always.

Likewise, having a blank (ruled) book in which you record every edition or monoprint made, leaves a record you or your descendants can use as a reliable overview of what edition was printed and how.

IMO.

 

[MTGseattle]

As an attendee at many a street, art, etc fair I always check out any booth selling photography. There are always 2-5 (sometimes more) well framed "statement" images for sale along with bins of various sized matted prints. You definitely want them in the nice clear envelopes to prevent a days or weekends fingerprints from effectively ruining the mats.
I too would try and get a handle on diy framing for anything 16x20 and smaller. I would also advocate for the nice acrylic for something framed that is going to travel. The caveat here is that while lighter, it is prone to static and scratches easily.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Wipe the acrylic with an anti-static solution like Brillianize and a clean microfiber towel. Another huge advantage of acrylic is that it is a much better thermal insulator than glass, and hence less prone to trapping condensation. Avoid clear styrene if possible; it's often sold in hobby stores and is a lot cheaper, but yellows and embrittles over time.

 

[GregY]

I sell some prints. Mostly 16x20 & 20x24". I don't have a website or attend fairs or markets. It's worth considering a number of things as you enter the market. A proper drymount press, and matt cutter set-up is not inexpensive. Contrary to what some people say....perfect matt cutting especially bevelled window matts take a lot of practice to perfect.
$600 for a framed small print is a lot for those venues. People who buy art tend to have their own ideas of framing. If your image includes $275 for framing.....your up front costs are high. Bring just 10 prints and your travel/ display set-up/ framing costs are well over $3k. I'd look at the overall quality of my prints, as well as the quality of the matting.... before i consider selling prints in frames.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Besides street fairs, some areas also have temporary indoor display space venues (rented empty retail space or warehouses etc). You join a collective and pay a small fee relative to the area of wall space you are going to need. Again, neither an elegant nor realistic option for high end work, but something offering a low overhead way to get a foot in the door, attract attention, and potentially sell a few things. Some of these events have enough members to warrant printing and mailing a newsprint invitation catalog at only minor expense to each participant.

 

[jeffreyg]

Don’t discount public gallery spaces. I’ve had exhibitions in such. Including the Miami International Airport, a community center where the homes average in the millions and made sales there, a bank and other such locations that were upscale where I made some very nice sales. As photography was not my occupation my photography has been very well received.
As they say location, location, location.

 

[Pieter12]

As photography was not my occupation my photography has been very well received.

Not sure what that means. Is there a stigma against professional photographers in Florida?

 

[jeffreyg]

Not at all. My impression is that the OP is also not a professional and his occupation is something else. I am retired from my main occupation but have been serious about photography for over fifty years. When I make a sale I am always grateful that someone appreciates my work enough to purchase it.

 

[cirwin2010]

I sell some prints. Mostly 16x20 & 20x24". I don't have a website or attend fairs or markets. It's worth considering a number of things as you enter the market. A proper drymount press, and matt cutter set-up is not inexpensive. Contrary to what some people say....perfect matt cutting especially bevelled window matts take a lot of practice to perfect.
$600 for a framed small print is a lot for those venues. People who buy art tend to have their own ideas of framing. If your image includes $275 for framing.....your up front costs are high. Bring just 10 prints and your travel/ display set-up/ framing costs are well over $3k. I'd look at the overall quality of my prints, as well as the quality of the matting.... before i consider selling prints in fames.

That print/frame is a lot because of the frame and materials I choose for it. It is a special image so I wanted to have something to match. Definitely not sustainable for other works. As mentioned before I can prints framed for under half that amount. Still a high up front cost regardless so I don't plan to have too many framed images (especially at first). Doing the matting and framing myself might be something I explore one day, but not today.

 

[cirwin2010]

Don’t discount public gallery spaces. I’ve had exhibitions in such. Including the Miami International Airport, a community center where the homes average in the millions and made sales there, a bank and other such locations that were upscale where I made some very nice sales. As photography was not my occupation my photography has been very well received.
As they say location, location, location.

I'll keep this in mind! I'll start with something like an art fair, but if that seems promising I'll explore other options for sure.

 

[Pieter12]

A proper drymount press

Hard to find and a proper one can be expensive new. Finding a used one can be tricky if shipping is involved. They are large and quite heavy.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/46576-REG/Seal_Bienfang_SE_1400_160M_Jumbo_Dry_Mounting.html

 

[Pieter12]

Not at all. My impression is that the OP is also not a professional and his occupation is something else. I am retired from my main occupation but have been serious about photography for over fifty years. When I make a sale I am always grateful that someone appreciates my work enough to purchase it.

Your original statement was quite ambiguous, reading that the reason your photography was well-received was because you were not a professional.

 

[Carnie Bob]

When I work with someone who is deciding to exhibit for the first time I suggest a few things.

If one is not signed by a gallery and does not have to give up 50% then I suggest taking the hard
cost of the print and frame and double or triple this as a starting price.
I do not consider the time equipment costs or film costs as part of this equation.

If you plan to only exhibit at these outdoor art fairs then this is a good starting point.

If you plan to have run at gallery showing then you must raise your price accordingly so that after you have sold an image through them you make at least the same amount as the gallery after your costs are considered, The gallery has to pay staff and overhead so I think this is a good policy.

I started out at $600 and slowly raised my prices over the years as I sold more.

 

[MTGseattle]

I can't decide how I feel about his photography and online content taken as a whole, but Nick Carver has 2-3 videos appropriate to this conversation and he is pretty explicit regarding costs.




His solo gallery show is a 4-video series, some of the pertinent info is spread among them.

As to alternative showcases for work, think about anyplace you have been or that you go in your day-to-day life that has art on the walls. In a cold call situation, you would need to have samples or a zine or something to show them, but you could inquire regarding getting your work onto those same walls. hair salons, coffee shops, bakeries, cafes, hotel lobby, etc.
In this case too, you have to have an understanding of the client base. Depending upon neighborhood/venue, a print priced in the thousands is going to get laughed right off of the wall rather than sold.

I had another slightly odd idea; The sample unit/s in condo developments. You may not be able to sell, but it could be a venue for getting your work seen. maybe?

 

[DREW WILEY]

It really depends on the quality of one's work. No way around that. Water seeks its own level.

It's fairly rare that a piece of work sells for much, or sells at all, from a restaurant or bank or office bldg or hospital wall. People are those places for a different reason. You might luck out, but actually making money is a different story. But formal galleries are not always realistic either; many of them these days take such a huge cut, even if you get in, that you might end up in the hole based on your own expenses. I'm not a pessimist. But this whole game is hard work.

Location, location, location; yes. But what kind of clientele does that location draw, and can you even afford to be there? A lot of key tourist destinations feature mostly overpriced kitchy trash on their walls. Yeah, I did personally luck out with some very good connection early on. But I also had a busy day job with its income to back me. Whenever another gallery gig wasn't on the horizon, I'd simply hang a nice recent example on my own office wall, beautifully but tastefully framed, and someone in the company would buy it within the same day. Then company clientele started asking - not a landslide (I couldn't handle that) - but a nice piece by piece pace. Since many of these people were superb architects and craftsmen, my high end framing was the appropriate bait on the hook, along with the image quality itself, of course.

 

[logan2z]

As to alternative showcases for work, think about anyplace you have been or that you go in your day-to-day life that has art on the walls.

Aaron Hardin shared an interesting idea for a DIY gallery in an empty retail space. I've never done it but I thought it was a cool idea...

 

[Pieter12]

When I work with someone who is deciding to exhibit for the first time I suggest a few things.

If one is not signed by a gallery and does not have to give up 50% then I suggest taking the hard
cost of the print and frame and double or triple this as a starting price.
I do not consider the time equipment costs or film costs as part of this equation.

If you plan to only exhibit at these outdoor art fairs then this is a good starting point.

If you plan to have run at gallery showing then you must raise your price accordingly so that after you have sold an image through them you make at least the same amount as the gallery after your costs are considered, The gallery has to pay staff and overhead so I think this is a good policy.

I started out at $600 and slowly raised my prices over the years as I sold more.

Not sure about marking up the framing so much, butI guess it has worked for you. On another note, one of my silver gelatin prints was just chosen by Duncan Miller Gallery here in Los Angeles to be featured on their "$100 Square Photo Sale" through "Your Daily Photograph." All the photos are 7"x7" and cost $100, with the photographer getting $75--quite reasonable for a print and a small mark-up for the gallery. They only charge another $100 for archival framing. https://eepurl.com/iZ-10w

 

[DREW WILEY]

Per the flick - Oh my gosh. Sheer funk is one thing. Pinning photos to raw plywood with its outgassing formaldehyde glue and wood acidity pretty much dooms the work right from the start. As an interesting social experiment - fine. As a legit gallery - nope, not unless it's transparently under the umbrella of "disposable art".

I've never been much of one for the "cheep, cheep, cheep" little bird call. I thought being a starving artist was just a rite of passage en route to somewhere else.

 

[jeffreyg]

The bank , community centers and office building I referred to have designated gallery spaces and permitted opening receptions as well as announcements in their mailing materials. The office building was mainly law offices and a couple bought pieces for their offices. From the bank and community centers I sold more ten pieces at good prices and didn’t have to pay commissions at any of those locations. I have also sold through galleries. I used Neilson sectional frames and have a very good mat cutter so that was diy but for the galleries I had some prints esp those with 8ply windows done at a top notch frame shop which actually traded for part of their fee The airport was an Art In Public Places exhibition so nothing was for sale but it was exposure to thousands of people.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh, that's a different story if they had designated display space and allowed opening receptions. My last big show was publicly-sponsored and had a curator, so was not a commercial gig at all, and nothing was for sale. I framed my half of it myself to the highest standards. The other key individual, then recently deceased, was famous, and his portion commercially framed at very high expense. Unfortunately, the value of the overall displayed collection was way too high for the insurance company to allow it to travel to other venues afterwards. But it garnered me some serious attention for awhile at least, and a couple of nice little paid projects came out of it.

For about 15 years I had a quantity of my big color prints hung in a legal complex. But I had been involved in certain of the remodel aspects of that to begin with - an incredible job with over 500 sheets of maple plywood bent and shaped like waves of the sea to comprise the ceiling above, and indoor/outdoor koi ponds below.
I shaped the frames from black walnut, cherrywood, and blonde maple, depending on the specific room and its particular paint job. Again, more of a PR esthetic strategy. Nothing was for sale inside there, except legal representation. They intended to build a separate gallery space per se adjacent to that, but then hit all kinds of hopeless snags with the city permitting process. Eventually the whole 11 million dollar complex sold due to retirement, and I got my print back.