• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Signs of life at the New 55 project

Plato's Philosophy.

A
Plato's Philosophy.

  • 0
  • 0
  • 24
Feet of clay

D
Feet of clay

  • 2
  • 4
  • 56

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
201,864
Messages
2,831,356
Members
100,991
Latest member
correlatednoise
Recent bookmarks
1

Ken Nadvornick

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,943
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
Maybe that perception of $15/sheet is part of the problem. That's only the price required to get the elephant to stand up and start walking. By the time he's able to run, he might be running at $6/sheet. But he can't run until he walks first. And he can't walk until he stands up first.

If I thought that the final end-game price was going to remain at $15, I'd never even have bothered to pledge. $150 for 10 sheets? I don't think so. But I honestly don't believe that would be the case. And at $6 I'd use it.

That's the visionary versus pragmatic thing I was referring to...

Ken
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
Maybe that perception of $15/sheet is part of the problem. That's only the price required to get the elephant to stand up and start walking. By the time he's able to run, he might be running at $6/sheet. But he can't run until he walks first. And he can't walk until he stands up first.

If I thought that the final end-game price was going to remain at $15, I'd never even have bothered to pledge. $150 for 10 sheets? I don't think so. But I honestly don't believe that would be the case. And at $6 I'd use it.

That's the visionary versus pragmatic thing I was referring to...

Ken

Perhaps they would have done better to create a 55 type 8x10? The infrastructure is already set by TIP and those shooters are willing to pay more? So just the emulsion and developer would need fine tuning, but the pod design and machining is already in place from TIP.
 

Barry S

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
1,350
Location
DC Metro
Format
Large Format
Maybe that perception of $15/sheet is part of the problem. That's only the price required to get the elephant to stand up and start walking. By the time he's able to run, he might be running at $6/sheet. But he can't run until he walks first. And he can't walk until he stands up first.

If I thought that the final end-game price was going to remain at $15, I'd never even have bothered to pledge. $150 for 10 sheets? I don't think so. But I honestly don't believe that would be the case. And at $6 I'd use it.

That's the visionary versus pragmatic thing I was referring to...

Ken

I've supported a number of KS projects, but this one set an unusually high bar for pragmatic reasons. I can't argue with Bob Crowley's reasoning, but it may not be the best strategy for KS. If you're pitching NEW 55 at $15/sheet, it sends a stronger message than speculation about a lower price. Most KS projects offer the final product at or below the final market price. The New 55 KS tests whether photographers are fanatical enough to pay $15/sheet today. If so, the project may be viable.
 

Ken Nadvornick

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,943
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
I've supported a number of KS projects, but this one set an unusually high bar for pragmatic reasons. I can't argue with Bob Crowley's reasoning, but it may not be the best strategy for KS. If you're pitching NEW 55 at $15/sheet, it sends a stronger message than speculation about a lower price. Most KS projects offer the final product at or below the final market price. The New 55 KS tests whether photographers are fanatical enough to pay $15/sheet today. If so, the project may be viable.

Certainly can't argue with such pragmatic reasoning.

Interestingly, I pledged precisely because he laid out the apparently unvarnished facts. In my line of work it's almost impossible to find anyone willing to tell the honest truth about anything. You can ask someone what they had for lunch, and they'll pathologically lie about it. Finding someone who appears to be realistically leveling with us is unexpectedly refreshing.

Ken
 

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council
Advertiser
Allowing Ads
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
11,603
Location
Washington DC
Format
Multi Format
I haven't pledged anything yet because I haven't seen negatives from it that look to be consistent enough in quality for me to justify spending $6/sheet, let alone $15/sheet. If I saw images that looked more like old Type55 (or even a more standard Tmax or Tri-x negative) and less like sloppy wet plate work, I'd be there to help out. But why should I pay $15 a sheet for something that is no better than a wet plate pour when I can do 4x5 wet plate for a lot less per negative?
 

Pioneer

Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
3,997
Location
Elko, Nevada
Format
Multi Format
After having received that update I have to say that it is refreshing to hear someone lay out the facts and be bluntly honest. I would love to see the project succeed. I would love to be able to shoot a film where the picture is immediately available, as well as a negative. But, that doesn't seem to be the attraction to others that it was for myself. Unfortunately it does not appear the enough people are willing to commit the money upfront for this type of film.

It is sad but there seems to be a reason that these films went away. In our current digital world, where seeing the image immediately is so commonplace, I don't think people really see a reason for this type of film any longer. And certainly not at the price it will take to get it up and viable in the market again. Even $6 a sheet is expensive when you can sit your digital on top of your large format camera and see a reasonable facsimile of your proposed shot on the digital display screen.
 

Ken Nadvornick

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,943
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
I haven't pledged anything yet because I haven't seen negatives from it that look to be consistent enough in quality for me to justify spending $6/sheet, let alone $15/sheet. If I saw images that looked more like old Type55 (or even a more standard Tmax or Tri-x negative) and less like sloppy wet plate work, I'd be there to help out. But why should I pay $15 a sheet for something that is no better than a wet plate pour when I can do 4x5 wet plate for a lot less per negative?

You shouldn't. Because it sounds as if your use case is definitely different from the New55 set of target cases. My potential use, street portraits in a 4x5 Crown, would be a different case entirely from yours. One more closely aligned with the New55 target model, I think.

It may all be moot, however. With the release of the new project update this morning there has been a burst of pledge activity, both new and upgrade. But I fear they are still way too far behind the curve. This KS project never really went viral in the way I think they were hoping it would. I'm still convinced that there are probably 3,000 interested parties out there. They just have not yet been reached. And likely won't be.

Ken
 
Last edited by a moderator:

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
You shouldn't. Because it sounds as if your use case is definitely different from the New55 set of target cases. My potential use, street portraits in a 4x5 Crown, would be a different case entirely from yours. One more closely aligned with the New55 target model, I think.

It may all be moot, however. With the release of the new project update this morning there has been a burst of pledge activity, both new and upgrade. But I fear they are still way too far behind the curve. This KS project never really went viral in the way I think they were hoping it would. I'm still convinced that there are probably 3,000 interested parties out there. They just have not yet been reached. And likely won't be.

Ken

Yea, the KS seemed short, is this a normal timeframe?

I was also surprised at the lack of social media used, and also, bad time of year, wait till mid-late summer people are still recovering from Christmas lol!
 

Ken Nadvornick

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,943
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
Yea, the KS seemed short, is this a normal timeframe?

Actually I think that's a really relevant question. I don't know what the KS rules are for project timeframes, but it sure seems like only 43 days to raise US$400,000 isn't very long. I mean, that's US$9,300+ per day. That's a lot. Outside of the first week or so, I wonder if they've averaged that for even just a few individual single days at all.

Ken
 

CatLABS

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
1,576
Location
MA, USA
Format
Large Format
Actually I think that's a really relevant question. I don't know what the KS rules are for project timeframes, but it sure seems like only 43 days to raise US$400,000 isn't very long. I mean, that's US$9,300+ per day. That's a lot. Outside of the first week or so, I wonder if they've averaged that for even just a few individual single days at all.

Ken

There is a max time of 60 days, but KS urges all projects to be 30 days or less in an effort to impress "the urgency" of the project.
43 days, is on the longer side of most project, and the stats show that the length of a project has nothing to do with it being funded, or that shorter project often get funded more. In any case the length is not the problem with this project.

The petzval lens project raised 1.2M$ in the same time frame, that makes for 30K$ or so a day on average....
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
There is a max time of 60 days, but KS urges all projects to be 30 days or less in an effort to impress "the urgency" of the project.
43 days, is on the longer side of most project, and the stats show that the length of a project has nothing to do with it being funded, or that shorter project often get funded more. In any case the length is not the problem with this project.

The petzval lens project raised 1.2M$ in the same time frame, that makes for 30K$ or so a day on average....

Social media reach...

They didn't do a very good job with the IMAGERY where was the video to awe us??
 

Ken Nadvornick

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,943
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
There is a max time of 60 days, but KS urges all projects to be 30 days or less in an effort to impress "the urgency" of the project.
43 days, is on the longer side of most project, and the stats show that the length of a project has nothing to do with it being funded, or that shorter project often get funded more. In any case the length is not the problem with this project.

The petzval lens project raised 1.2M$ in the same time frame, that makes for 30K$ or so a day on average....

Well then it's even more depressing than it appears. When he arrived in my mail that NOS Polaroid 545 holder was grinning from 'L' to 'P'. There was a swagger in his voice that was unmistakable. As if his endless patience was finally paying off.

Now he has trouble even getting out of bed each morning. I've considered a clinical dose of expired original 55 P/N, but fear that might only make things worse in the long run. I won't let him look at KS anymore.

I tried telling him that it's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all. But I don't think he was listening.

:sad:

Ken
 

CatLABS

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
1,576
Location
MA, USA
Format
Large Format
Well then it's even more depressing than it appears. When he arrived in my mail that NOS Polaroid 545 holder was grinning from 'L' to 'P'. There was a swagger in his voice that was unmistakable. As if his endless patience was finally paying off.

Now he has trouble even getting out of bed each morning. I've considered a clinical dose of expired original 55 P/N, but fear that might only make things worse in the long run. I won't let him look at KS anymore.

I tried telling him that it's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all. But I don't think he was listening.

:sad:

Ken

If you dident like the new55 at 15$ try getting it on ebay... your wallet will be offing it self sooner then that 545 for sure.

I see a New55 KS mark II in the future, with some lessons learned and a much more successful campaign. But - its not over until the fat lady sings.
 

Roger Cole

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
6,069
Location
Atlanta GA
Format
Multi Format
There is a max time of 60 days, but KS urges all projects to be 30 days or less in an effort to impress "the urgency" of the project.
43 days, is on the longer side of most project, and the stats show that the length of a project has nothing to do with it being funded, or that shorter project often get funded more. In any case the length is not the problem with this project.

The petzval lens project raised 1.2M$ in the same time frame, that makes for 30K$ or so a day on average....

Then maybe KS isn't the right venue for this. Couldn't they set up something themselves with their own web site and promote through photography online media?
 

Ken Nadvornick

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,943
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
FWIW, just now they went over US$150,000. A big jump today because of the distressing update letter. So it took them about 8 days and 7½ hours for the last US$50,000. They have 18 days remaining...

Ken
 
Last edited by a moderator:

David Grenet

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
309
Location
Sydney, Aust
Format
Multi Format
FWIW, just now they went over US$150,000. A big jump today because of the distressing update letter. So it took them about 8 days and 7½ hours for the last US$50,000. They have 18 days remaining...

Ken

Not necessarily just because of the update letter. Dead Link Removed backers also just got an update encouraging support for New55...
 

CatLABS

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
1,576
Location
MA, USA
Format
Large Format
Then maybe KS isn't the right venue for this. Couldn't they set up something themselves with their own web site and promote through photography online media?

Photography online media (whatever it may be) is not interested in film, unless its a camera that happens to be an open source 3D printed gizmo, nothing more then a curiosity.
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
lomography is a store, not a media outlet.

This is slightly incorrect, they have newsletters and of course if you don't really know about a lot of other film companies and have other sources, then Lomography is really your only source of information when it comes to film and such without having to seek out your own, so the newsletters that they send out could be considered a media outlet for the less knowledgeable.
 

Pioneer

Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
3,997
Location
Elko, Nevada
Format
Multi Format
This is slightly incorrect, they have newsletters and of course if you don't really know about a lot of other film companies and have other sources, then Lomography is really your only source of information when it comes to film and such without having to seek out your own, so the newsletters that they send out could be considered a media outlet for the less knowledgeable.

I just don't see that as being correct Stone. I would be willing to bet that the Lomo crowd is pretty hooked up and get most of their information from other sources (re; the media outlets). Its a store. The newsletter is mostly providing information about Lomography products and is almost certainly a very small portion of the information the Lomo group has at their fingertips.
 

CatLABS

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
1,576
Location
MA, USA
Format
Large Format
This is slightly incorrect, they have newsletters and of course if you don't really know about a lot of other film companies and have other sources, then Lomography is really your only source of information when it comes to film and such without having to seek out your own, so the newsletters that they send out could be considered a media outlet for the less knowledgeable.

Under the above statement - the Costco coupon book could be considered a newspaper.
 

Roger Cole

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
6,069
Location
Atlanta GA
Format
Multi Format
Photography online media (whatever it may be) is not interested in film, unless its a camera that happens to be an open source 3D printed gizmo, nothing more then a curiosity.

The existence and activity level of this forum would seem to argue otherwise. And if you are referring to the Travelwide I think it will be a lot more than a curiosity. An affordable, light weight handheld new 4x5 is something there is obviously a market for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

swhiser

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
45
Location
Massachusett
Format
4x5 Format
Certainly can't argue with such pragmatic reasoning.

Interestingly, I pledged precisely because he laid out the apparently unvarnished facts. In my line of work it's almost impossible to find anyone willing to tell the honest truth about anything. [snip]

Ken

Ken -

We certainly appreciate your direct and indirect support of the project and your willingness to understand.

We chuckle about your comment. The response to that update was affirmative in the community and reassuring. By now, a lot of factors are responsible for the improvements in our curve -- not to mention recent support coming in from well-known photographers.

The New55 FILM Kickstarter page is about the ugliest thing I have ever seen and certainly the ugliest thing on that website. That's deliberate. Because the New55 FILM funding requirement is so high by Kickstarter standards, we felt it was important to be direct and honest about a) the difficulty of the project in both technical and business terms, and b) the likelihood of facing cascading delays and bumps in the road due in part to the unevenness of supply-lines in the analog film markets.

The idea of being honest and open -- and I know this is still unusual for a business -- comes from Doc Searle's "The Cluetrain Manifesto" (speak to people, not 'markets') and also from Eric Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" (the person who finds the problem is not likely the person who solves it). The thing that attracted me to Bob Crowley and his 4x5 instant film project in the first place was his shrewd decision to open-source the reagent and DTR experiments from the very beginning back in 2010. This is unusual in itself but quite unorthodox given the context of Polaroid's proprietary culture. Openness was absolutely the right way to go, and it defines our comportment going forward.

It was important not to come at people from Kickstarter with the trappings of a product marketing presentation. Firstly, there is no product yet; and secondly, this is not a pre-sale where everything is already lined up, inventory on the shelf, awaiting shipment invoicing. Whether or not that's ethically questionable, it's something Kickstarter has been trying to minimize.

We're open to criticism and have benefitted a lot from it. Sometimes we deflect ideas -- even good ones -- but when possible, we implement them. We've heard that the way it's done on Kickstarter is to set a low blow-out price there and let the traffic rush in in anticipation of a higher price in the market after. I will say that if that approach was encouraged at Kickstarter, and if it was fair to the community, then we would have tried it. But I asked Sir Isaac and even Pythagoras, too, and their number thing, the math, doesn't work. Not just the math but, for us, there's a permissible level of risk at Kickstarter; and pre-selling in our case would create an unknowable fulfillment burden when we have not got the machinery yet. We're not going there and we believe that the community of photographers is sophisticated enough to recognize the boundary of the requirement and take our $400,000 target at face value. ($400,000 is very little money in the context of making something.)

Here it is again, from the Kickstarter page ...

USE OF PROCEEDS

We will use the proceeds of this Kickstarter project to fund the final component specification work, the acquisition of assembly machinery, pay for hired engineering, general and assembly help, cover material costs and the purchase of the parts inventory for the "First Edition" manufacturing run of New55 FILM instant peel-apart 4x5 film.

We estimate that the machinery sourcing, development and qualifications alone could account for about $250,000, and the parts inventory connected with the 25,000 assembled sheets of New55 FILM (that's 5,000 boxes) will cost a minimum of $75,000. The remaining $75,000 is needed for overhead and general expenses.

Accordingly, to infer a per-sheet price from the Kickstarter rewards is natural, but it is misleading. Being successful at Kickstarter is the only objective now. As someone said, "...getting the elephant to stand up." If there is the opportunity later -- and that 'IF' represents its own elephant -- the market will set the price. Quite as it should.

At Kickstarter, through May 5th, there's an opportunity to VOTE. That's invigorating. Positive. We've been absolutely clear about the issues. If the vote doesn't turn in our favor then we'll all be back to PICKETING.

We've set the terms. Now, it's yay or nay. Real simple.

Thanks for hanging in there with us. This material is worth every effort of ours, and even more importantly, of the community's.

-Sam
 
Last edited by a moderator:

swhiser

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
45
Location
Massachusett
Format
4x5 Format
I haven't pledged anything yet because I haven't seen negatives from it that look to be consistent enough in quality ...

Flying-
The negatives are awesome now and they ARE irregular because all the existing test shots were from handmade assemblies. You won't see regular performance for a good while because the film is still in development and will continue to be for a while after machinery is in place, like all products with multiple, variable ingredients. Sorry you'll miss the fun.
-Sam
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom