Shutter speeds off after no usage for months

[tonyowen]

My synchro compur #0 shutter was cla'd a couple of years ago.
When returned it functioned without problems.
Now after several months of no-use the slowest speeds 1/4s to 1s are noticeably way out [ 1s = circa 5s]
I've tried multiple cocking and releases. but to no avail
I've also taken off the front and rear lens cells in case anything was 'catching' but to no change
Any comments and advice welcome
regards
Tony

 

[BrianShaw]

I’d guess that the CLA wasn’t done as completely as it could/should have been done. Probably no hope of requesting warranty re-do now... but asking wont hurt.

 

[Pioneer]

I can't comment regarding your particular shutter but I had a similar issue a couple of years ago. You may still have some oil or other gunk in places it should not be.

What I did was note the new (slower) shutter speeds. In my case, fortunately, the slower shutter speeds were still pretty consistent. I started using the shutter regularly and every 2 weeks or so I would recheck the shutter speeds. Within 3 months of regular usage the shutter had returned close to the original, CLA'd, speeds. In my case, a Graphic Supermatic X shutter, the fast speeds have never returned to the original settings and I suspect that replacement springs will be needed to get those back. However, the slow speeds work pretty well now. I am still using that shutter pretty regularly.

I typically fire that particular shutter two or three times before I actually take the picture. I don't know if that helps but it does make me feel better. I have also learned that it is a good idea to take out all my leaf shutters and exercise them regularly. Again, I can't say whether or not that really helps but it does make me feel like I am doing my part to keep these old shutters (and cameras) running.

 

[jim10219]

If it was CLA's a couple of years ago, anything could have happened. It could have gotten some gunk inside it at one point that contaminated the oil. The repair person could have used a natural oil, instead of synthetic that broke down with time and temperature (especially if it's spent time in a hot car or experienced vicious temperature cycles). There could have been an incompatibility issue with the grease and oil, or two different oils used. They can cross contaminate and rob each other of their original properties. They could have used an extremely viscous oil that made the worn out parts operate more freely to get them closer to their original speeds, only to have the oil not adhere as well to the parts over time, and now it's basically running dry with a bunch of oil build up in a corner of the housing collecting dirt. There also could have been a spring that was engaged and left alone while it was not being used, and now that spring has lost a lot of it's tension. Lots of things can happen when you let a shutter sit unused for long periods of time. That's one reason I try to keep my lens collection to a minimum.

At this point, I'd check it to see if it's consistent, and if it is, just make a chart that show actual shutter speeds versus indicated speeds, and shoot it while using that chart. I have several older shutters (especially compound shutters) that have to be used this way. Either that, or send it back for another CLA and keep it in use this time.

And speaking of compound shutters, be thankful it's not a compound shutter! I spent several hours getting one set up just perfectly (or as close to perfect as it would get) and even made a sticker to cover the old speed markings with precise new ones once before taking a trip into the mountains to do some photography. But when I got there, the air pressure difference from the altitude threw all my speeds off! My slow speeds were running at about half speed, and the fastest speeds were running slightly fast. I got up there and had to guess the new speeds by sound. And when I got back home and went to check the speeds again, it was back to normal. Very frustrating, but the photos turned out nice, so all's well that ends well, I suppose.

 

[shutterfinger]

I suspect who ever did the CLA flushed it out with solvent and added fresh oil/grease without a full tear down. I do a full tear down, flush/clean then reassemble with fresh lubricants. Shutters I CLAed 5 to 10 years ago and have had little to no use still operate as they did when tested after the CLA.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My Hasselblad repairman recommends that all shutters be fired ten to fifteen times at the slowest shutter speed to avoid the problem you have and sticking shutters.

 

[tonyowen]

My Hasselblad repairman recommends that all shutters be fired ten to fifteen times at the slowest shutter speed to avoid the problem you have and sticking shutters.

Certainly firing slower speeds many times changes the sped of the shutter EXCEPTING the 1s which remains open for more that 10 s
regards
Tony

 

[shutterfinger]

Can you post a picture of the shutter with the front cell removed? The Synchro Compur went through some design changes over the years.

 

[Ian Grant]

I suspect who ever did the CLA flushed it out with solvent and added fresh oil/grease without a full tear down. I do a full tear down, flush/clean then reassemble with fresh lubricants. Shutters I CLAed 5 to 10 years ago and have had little to no use still operate as they did when tested after the CLA.

Here in the UK all the repairers I've come across strip shutters down completely and clean the parts then rebuild the shutter. I have lenses I've sent for a CLA and they are still fine 10-15 years later.

Ian

 

[GKC]

Exercise it much?
Try 20 reps at different speeds and check again.

 

[tonyowen]

Here in the UK all the repairers I've come across strip shutters down completely and clean the parts then rebuild the shutter. I have lenses I've sent for a CLA and they are still fine 10-15 years later. Ian

Ian, the was done by Black on White and they're now saying "Normally the speed govenor gets worn and the gears won't run freely, there are other reasons for the speeds slowing but this is more common now that things are getting older and more tired. If there has been impact this can cause the blades to be pinched and won't allow the blades to run through the action. One way to release the jam is to select a faster speed once jammed. It will might need to rebuild the whole shutter" This is the same they did in November 2017.

The shutter has not been dropped or impacted in any way. I can use 'B', 1/30s upwards, flash and delayed timer, so I doubt if I can justify shutter repairs averaging £100 every 2 or 3 years.

regards
Tony

 

[BrianShaw]

Tony, shutters when properly overhauled don’t need rebuild every couple of years. It is possible, I suppose, that your shutter had a lot of use and has wear that an ordinary overhaul cannot correct... but who’s to say if that’s really the case or not?

 

[shutterfinger]

Tony, find another shop and have the shutter serviced. B&W gave you a cover explanation for slow shutter speeds. Too much oil or grease acts like glue and will jam up a shutter after a period of non usage.
The delay timer disassembled: the coil tension spring, green arrow/314, is dependent on the other gears to hold its tension setting. A gear tooth turn in its setting will make the difference between speeds being correct or incorrect across the range of speeds.
The pallet end is moved toward or away from the center of the shutter to set the 1 second speed. Adjustment range is approximately 1/2 second.
The setting end position adjusts 1/15 second speed and once the 1 second and 1/15 are adjusted correctly all other speeds should be correct.
The speed ring has steps that position the delay lever at the setting end. The main cocking spring tension is the force for closing the shutter, the delay holds it open for the selected time then allows the shutter to close. If the 1 second setting end is too close to the center of the shutter it will prevent the shutter from closing.
One will not know what the problem with yours is until it is opened and checked.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Tony, shutters when properly overhauled don’t need rebuild every couple of years. It is possible, I suppose, that your shutter had a lot of use and has wear that an ordinary overhaul cannot correct... but who’s to say if that’s really the case or not?

I agree. That has been my experience too.

 

[tonyowen]

Can you post a picture of the shutter with the front cell removed? The Synchro Compur went through some design changes over the years.

Pci attached
regards
Tony

 

[shutterfinger]

This should be a screw at the red arrow. Its tiny. Remove it, turn the black ring counterclockwise (anticlockwise) until the next slot in the black ring aligns with the next set of threads then reinstall the screw. Test the slow speeds. Repeat until the black ring has been turned no more than 180° as the speed ring and cocking lever will become too loose for proper operation and may go out of position if the black ring becomes too loose. Not having it in hand its impossible to tell if its too tight or not. There are threaded holes every 15° to 20° around the perimeter of the mating section under the black ring. As you start turning the black ring one of the other slots in the black ring will line up with a threaded hole. Mark your starting slot and screw position. Also check that the MXV lever is at the X or M position as V is delay timer and should not allow the shutter to trip/fire for 7 to 10 seconds after the release lever is operated with the shutter cocked.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian, the was done by Black on White and they're now saying "Normally the speed govenor gets worn and the gears won't run freely, there are other reasons for the speeds slowing but this is more common now that things are getting older and more tired. If there has been impact this can cause the blades to be pinched and won't allow the blades to run through the action. One way to release the jam is to select a faster speed once jammed. It will might need to rebuild the whole shutter" This is the same they did in November 2017.

The shutter has not been dropped or impacted in any way. I can use 'B', 1/30s upwards, flash and delayed timer, so I doubt if I can justify shutter repairs averaging £100 every 2 or 3 years.

regards
Tony

I've used John at B on W quite a few times over the past 15-16 years and I know he strips down and repairs cameras and shutters very thoroughly. In fact my Rolleiflex Automat MX came back from him yesterday and the Compur shutter is now smooth at slow speeds it was just OK before, it went because of a wind on issue,. He's also serviced my Rolleiflex E2 and Yashicamat 124 plus some LF lenses like a 165mm Super Angulon and all still work perfectly.

It's unlikely there's a major issue.

Ian

 

[tonyowen]

[This should be a screw at the red arrow. Its tiny. .

No obvious screw just a hole that may or may not be threaded
regards
Tony

 

[tonyowen]

Oops, wrong hole- there is a screw in the black ring. I looked at the other hole!!!
see image

 

[removed account4]

My Hasselblad repairman recommends that all shutters be fired ten to fifteen times at the slowest shutter speed to avoid the problem you have and sticking shutters.

yup. gotta exercise the shutters

 

[tonyowen]

yup. gotta exercise the shutters

You're right - I've gotten the 1/15s & 1/8s back to 'normal', but the 1/4s & 1/2s are still open for seconds. Whilst the 1s is open for minutes !!
Also, it seem that the first activation of a particular speed almost always functions correctly, but subsequent activations do not do so!!
regards
Tony

 

[BrianShaw]

The problem with “exercise” is that it is only a temporary deferment of the inevitable. It does not fix the problem for long.

 

[shutterfinger]

It may be a plug that is simply lifted up and out of the hole.

538 - screw or plug; 547 - the black ring, threaded internally; 540 - trim ring; 539 - speed ring; 552 - inner cover with operating notches for speeds, time, bulb. 539 & 552 lock together via a notch in 539 and lip in 552, 540 sits into grove in inner edge of 539 and is held in position by pin in the shutter mechanism engaging the hole in the outer edge of 540, 547 screws onto the center of the shutter housing and 538 holds 547's position.

I've had shutters work properly on reassembly only to need 547 loosened a hole or two a few days later.

 

[MattKing]

The problem with “exercise” is that it is only a temporary deferment of the inevitable. It does not fix the problem for long.

Is this about shutters, or life in general?

 

[shutterfinger]

Is this about shutters, or life in general?

Both.