Should I Stop Posting Images?

[Shmoo]

As a photojournalistic statement, I find theimages more redundant than offensive.

I agree. If you wanted to make a more photojournalistic statement about the lives of these people, you would include more about their lives in the gallery (the bars they hang out at, their "mama-sans", their families, what do they do when they aren't "working", what their lives were like before, etc.). There's a whole life and life history behind these people and we're not seeing it. Just my opinion.

 

[gerryyaum]

In a word: I constantly battle with trying to disregard the status of people and their material possessions when I am in front of them, and I try to focus on what they do - one human to another. That describes, I think, their true worth. The important lesson is that everybody is a human being, and you reinforce that.
Somebody mentioned that it would be interesting to hear a few qualifying comments - reasons to why you do this work - because I think it would give it more depth and meaning, and possibly an understanding among those that need a justification for viewing it.

Oh, and thank you by the way. I can't go to the galleries at work anymore, thanks to you, and that's a good thing. I get more work done.

- Thomas

Hi I wrote up a little history and explanation earlier, also ended up posting that statement on my blog am not that much of a writer but you should get a the jist of things.

http://gerryyaum.blogspot.com/2008/09/history-of-thai-sex-worker-photos.html

I think your comments are right on the mark. Thanks

 

[papagene]

I say keep on posting. But like Shmoo and nsurit say, start expanding this project. You have made a very good introduction to these people. I for one would be interested in seeing and learning more of who they are and where they came from.
Anyway - thanks for the good jolt of reality!

gene

 

[gerryyaum]

Gerry-

I'm really glad you wrote your statement of "why" earlier in this thread. I disliked the images you were posting because I lacked context for them, and without the context, I felt they were exploitative. That said, I would never ask you to take them down, because there is nothing wrong with them. Now that I have a context for the images, I understand the background and it doesn't create the same misgivings. They do not appeal to me aesthetically, especially the latest series with their Weegee-esque quality to them, but that is a style critique, not a reason to stop posting. Keep on doing the work you believe in, and keep showing it.

Thanks very much for expressing your point of view.....I have always been troubled with trying not to exploit the exploited to make my photographs. I worry thou at the need for my words to add context, it is sort of like the images do not speak for themselves. I guess a certain amount of verbage is needed to describe things, I just wish the photos did all the talking for me.

 

[Bruce Osgood]

As Gene, Shmoo and nsurit say, expand this and let us see what the daily life of a ladyboy is like. I'm sure there are moving images of the interaction between these ladyboys that the general public has no comprehension of.

What we see in your images is a dark side of life that probably isn't entirely true. Maybe it is. But I'd bet there is a humanity here that we will never know.

 

[gerryyaum]

Keep posting. Your work is interesting, and I'm pleased you've decided to share it here.

And for those at work, we tried to create a system to make it easier for folks to "hide" certain "Not Safe for Work" images, but the whole thing became too onerous.

I think the system we have in place works pretty well for those who may not want to view certain types of images, especially the sidebar thumbnails, whether nudes, ladyboys, rocks, trees... whatever!

Thanks Suzzane for your comments...always liked that word Interesting also..usually in my photoclub I hear that fairly often..." well that's INTERESTING!"

 

[rkmiec]

There are no rules on this site as far as i know prohibiting nudity.I looked at a few of your photos and that was enough for me.I think they are interesting and you should keep posting them.I agree that some background would be cool but it is not necessary.Also the images you have posted have all stated what series they were from and if someone is offended they should not click on any images that say ladyboy in it.There are a few people here that post nude men so i think this person is offended by your specific images and that is their problem not yours.You have paid just like every one else so i say keep posting.Man i haven't posted on apug in a little while,glad to be back.

 

[gerryyaum]

lots of us have posted images which offend some one or another... take a look at the penis gate affair or the homeless man issue just recently.
debate is good....however I would be intrested to see you move on from this topic and show what other work you are doing?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

penisgate? have to check out both the links.... thanks..

Actually I just shot something like 100 rolls of roll film and over 300 sheets of 4x5 film on the ladyboy thing (photogrphed 4 lady sex workers as well)...so will probably be posting a few of those images over the next while. I will be going to Hong Kong/China in November so will try to post some street stuff that I intend to shoot there(might be lousy images thou!).

Will try not to burden you to much with the ladyboy stuff. 1 or 2 images a week maybe.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I was interested in Sturges' suggestion to light them and generally to represent them in a more humanizing way.

It's interesting to see how the project has developed, how you've become closer to the subjects, and to see how you've been searching for a style. The earlier shots are more Weegee-esque, where the flash seems to be catching a furtive glance, and the later 8x10" shots are more formal, and the subjects are taken out of their surroundings, like you're trying out Avedon's approach--lots of soft, relatively neutral light, small aperture for longer DOF, revealing everything in detail. Bellocq's images are formal, because he's using a camera on a tripod and making excellent use of available light, but the women are still photographed in their workplace. I'm guessing it wouldn't be so easy for you to get the 8x10" camera and lighting into the bars and brothels, or maybe not yet.

 

[gerryyaum]

The images don't bother me at all, however I can understand that some people might find them offensive. I don't think it reflects badly on people who are offended & I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol that is being directed at them. If we are open minded enough to appreciate the rationale behind pictures of sex workers then surely that same open mindedness can extend to understanding why some people don't want to see such explicit material displayed at APUG.

If I was taking photos like this I probably wouldn't be posting them on 'general public' sites such as APUG, rangefinderforum, photo.net etc. I'd host them on my own blog or website or find a forum that is dedicated to no holds barred documentary photography & post them there, where people would have some expectation of what they are likely to see.

www.gerryyaum.com
www.gerryyaum.blogspot.com

does anyone have an address for a no holds bar documentary photography site? would love to join it...there must be some out there.

Thanks for your comments

 

[gerryyaum]

This body of work is fine, but can we see more works from you of a different nature? ide like to get a feel for what other bodies of work you have undertaken.

hmm not much to show thats different..sort of been obsessed with the sexworker images since 1996.

Check out this link for few slightly different images.

http://gerryyaum.com/street life.html

 

[gerryyaum]

Having looked at your first posting of an image, the first thing that came to my mind was exploitive people being exploited more. Having read your explanation, I see what you are trying to accomplish. But I don't think posting one at a time accomplishes your goal. If this is a body of work that as a whole is supposed to cause people to react and some greater good is to come out of that reaction, than post the photos as a body. The Portfolio section would be a better place, not the general gallery.

A second thought, as a father, not all that view this forum are over 18.

I usually get the reaction from judges in my club, they see it as a body of work. The reason I posted the images individually was to get feedback on them individually and as a whole, when I post them as a group I usually hear nothing.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The exploiting the exploited comment might be valid and it is something I have often worried about. I think thou the question might be asked..

"How can you you photograph people being exploited without exploiting them in the process?"

Photography is a visual medium so if I want to show something visually like a drug addict, I might show him with a needle in his arm. If I do a sex worker it might be nude in a room she sells her body in...you need the visual element to make a powerful photograph. Now by making the thing visual are you exploiting your subject? it is sort of a catch 22. The way I have handled if is to treat the person with as much respect as I can during the shoot but when I make the exposures I try to show the reality of their lives. It is like your trying to respect them but also show how they are exploited visually, tough to do.

 

[gerryyaum]

Gerry, keep on posting! Maybe you can print them on AZO and add some blather about highlight separation to make them less offensive. I wish there were more gritty work and a little less tree-trunks and clouds on APUG!

AZO..thought I missed that boat!

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Thanks very much for expressing your point of view.....I have always been troubled with trying not to exploit the exploited to make my photographs. I worry thou at the need for my words to add context, it is sort of like the images do not speak for themselves. I guess a certain amount of verbage is needed to describe things, I just wish the photos did all the talking for me.

Gerry- I think if you showed the ladyboys in a less voyeuristic way, and shot their whole lives, not just the sexual identities of them, it would go a long way to showing what you want your work to do- follow them to the store, getting ready for work, and so on. It would be terrific if you could show interaction with customers, but I doubt you would ever get the customer's permission. Show them in the whole context of their living space, not just a naked man-woman on a bed. Give us the context. Look at Mary Ellen Mark's work about the women in the brothels of Calcutta for an example.I think that you also need to write up something that tells us about who each of your subjects is, to provide depth. Tell us who they are, what part of Thailand they're from, how old they are, what their education is, why they're doing it, what are their plans beyond tomorrow if they have any.

 

[gerryyaum]

Well, that's where we differ. I do try to have some sympathy for & understanding of other people, no matter what their beliefs, or how different they are from mine. That's why I'm trying to present a plausible reason why some may reasonably take offence. I just want to make clear once again that I am not bothered by the photos. I'm perfectly happy for Gerry to keep posting them. However if it was my project I would do something like - post some of the tamer ones in the APUG gallery & have a link in my signature directing people to my website to see the full set.

actually these images are a bit tamer, have been trying to post images that show less nudity. When I made the images I sort of allowed the personalities of the subjects to come out, at least that is what I tried to do. If they were shy I photographed them that way if they were exotic I tried to go in that direction. Out of the 20 ladyboys about 5 were more sexual in their nature and not shy at all, so I shot them that way. I have not and will not post any of those images because are slightly more overt.

I think your right about the website link part of it. I will be posting the link later when I develop and upload all the images to my website. Thanks for your comments.

www.gerryyaum.com

 

[gerryyaum]

Branches trees and clouds are ok, I do not even mind the occasional rock if it is done tastefully but stumps are lewd and salacious and offensive. They have no place on APUG.

haha...lets ban them damn stumps!

 

[gerryyaum]

Gerry, I would say, in a nutshell, that there can be a million things to discuss, criticize, agree/disagree about your photos, but not that they do not belong on APUG.

I'd be glad of course to bring in my big mouth and endless opinions, should you like to start a thread discussing the content and art of your photos.

At any rate, your attitude is exemplary, and I hope you'll be encouraged by this reality check to keep doing your work and posting it on APUG.

thanks..for your encouragement

 

[gerryyaum]

I am a tree, cloud, stump kind of photographer. I like to take pictures of what I find beautiful, or attractive in the world. I like to be reminded that the world is not always harsh.
As such I am challenged by you posts, but not offended. The right challenge at the right place and time builds strength and character. It is up to each us to chose time and place to view and contemplate art/documentary work such as yours. APUG with your contribution affords us this luxury. In turn it is up to us to prepare our children to survive in a world that is sometimes beautiful and often harsh.

Keep posting and thanks.

I have a friend who is a zone landscape guy who expresses similar feelings to yours. I agree whole heartedly, shoot what you find interesting/beautiful etc...to each his own...I think that often my work is to one dimentional and I need to show the lighter side of things. Even in places like the bars of Thailand there are windows of light/happiness and hope. I feel like I am missing the boat there with my photos sometimes, there needs to be more roundness in the work.

 

[gerryyaum]

The subject matter of this series likely has limited interest for many if not most.

There are some who will be offended, however I seriously doubt that this is any great surprise.

As a photojournalistic statement, I find theimages more redundant than offensive.

A dog licks his testicles because he can. I would hope that is not your reason for your posting on this site images of very similar subjects, compositions and technical skills.

I often refer people to this site as a resource. There are some I would not refer if this became the norm in the galleries section. Bill Barber

The work is similar I guess. I felt because it involved different people it was not redundant, I guess it comes down to opportunity and working in a set time period. You have 2 weeks to shoot 20 people, you have to talk, meet, set up sessions. You have transport, travel, walk. Then after doing all of that you have to make the images (by the way all of this is done in a foreign language). I think your right they are a bit repetitive but in a way they are meant to be that way. I think that an earlier poster had it correct, it is a body of work that is supposed to be linked together.

Thanks for your thoughts...will get back to you on the dog testicle licking thingy

 

[gerryyaum]

Gerry,have you seen the book by Lincoln Clarkes titled "Heroines:The Photographs of Lincoln Clarkes"? He did a series of photos in Vancouver's east side dealing with the epidemic of crack & heroin addiction among young street girls/women.A very powerful social statement.Your work reminded me of Clarkes's.

Mike I think I have that book. I was in Vancouver last year and bought a bunch of photography books at used bookstores, one of which is the book you mention (I think). I liked the book quite a bit, will check when I get back home.

 

[gerryyaum]

I agree. If you wanted to make a more photojournalistic statement about the lives of these people, you would include more about their lives in the gallery (the bars they hang out at, their "mama-sans", their families, what do they do when they aren't "working", what their lives were like before, etc.). There's a whole life and life history behind these people and we're not seeing it. Just my opinion.

your right of course....the problem is getting into the world that deep and doing it while making pictures. I always marvel at Mary Ellen Marks book FALKLAND ROAD....she got so deep into there lives...a great photogrpher....

I have to try to get to that level....need more time thou to accomplish that.

Thanks very much your right on the mark

 

[gerryyaum]

As Gene, Shmoo and nsurit say, expand this and let us see what the daily life of a ladyboy is like. I'm sure there are moving images of the interaction between these ladyboys that the general public has no comprehension of.

What we see in your images is a dark side of life that probably isn't entirely true. Maybe it is. But I'd bet there is a humanity here that we will never know.

yes will try to do that..might have to change gear to 35mm so that I can be more mobile...cheap 35mm will be safer also as professional camera draws attention....thanks for the suggestions

 

[gerryyaum]

I was interested in Sturges' suggestion to light them and generally to represent them in a more humanizing way.

It's interesting to see how the project has developed, how you've become closer to the subjects, and to see how you've been searching for a style. The earlier shots are more Weegee-esque, where the flash seems to be catching a furtive glance, and the later 8x10" shots are more formal, and the subjects are taken out of their surroundings, like you're trying out Avedon's approach--lots of soft, relatively neutral light, small aperture for longer DOF, revealing everything in detail. Bellocq's images are formal, because he's using a camera on a tripod and making excellent use of available light, but the women are still photographed in their workplace. I'm guessing it wouldn't be so easy for you to get the 8x10" camera and lighting into the bars and brothels, or maybe not yet.

With the 8x10 work (2007) I went to the bars or the streets met and talked to people, showed them my work etc and then set up appointments to visit my studio (my rented room set up with all the flash equipment). I had a cell phone so I would give that out as well as my address. I would usually be woke up to make the photographs(walking around all night to find the subjects), the people would call the cell I would wake up and go to bring them up to the room then make photographs. Shoot would last 1 hour then I would reload film for an hour, catch another hour or 2 of sleep be woken up by the phone again and make more photos followed by a film change. That night I would go out looking for new people to photograph, I was pretty burned out when it was all done with.

It was quite a weird experience to be woken up by a cell phone, answering it in in Thai and trying to understand what the ladyboy is saying on the other end of the line...that will give you one big headache.


Taking the 4x5 rangefinder (banarama) with a twin reflex Mamiya and all the portable flash stuff to the ladyboy shoots in shortime rooms (2008) was tough enough. Taking a 8x10 to the rooms would not be practical. I was thinking thou of doing street portraits during the day outdoors with the 8x10, that is a possibility. Working in that hot enviroment, surrounded by speeding cars and polution, noise, suspicious people would be rather challenging thou. I think it might be lots of fun to try thou!

 

[Stephen Frizza]

My view

I feel these these photos and the other photographic works of yours are not so different to the one of the homeless man that I posted and got strong negative feedback from Apug, Why you haven't amazes me.

Personally I think these sex worker photos lack talent, they come across as a rich westerners images who goes to Asia for sexual thrills then posts on apug to receive some validation to your exploitive actions. Some guys take the sex workers to backrooms to fuck them, you take them there to photograph them. Everyone here seems to want to tip toe around this possibility. The style of these photos is clumsy & unoriginal and I think the fact your shooting on large format is not being taken advantage of by how you are executing your work. Many of them look like a bad Richard Avedon copies to be generous.

The work doesn't give the viewer any understanding of the people you are photographing or the lives they lead, and no amount of spiel can account for this. Why not do as TheFlyingCamera suggested and photograph their lives in broader respect? perhaps take a look at the works of skilled documentary photographers like Mary Ellen Mark? All I'm seeing here is an man who's a lady-boy trophy collector.

reference materials below.

Link is reference to the homeless man image i posted.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

And for other people who are reading this thread this is more work from gerryyaum
http://www.gerryyaum.com/street%20life.html

 

[declark]

nothing wrong with that point, it is very valid ...I surf from work also : )

Gerry,

Thanks for understanding what I was getting at.

Several others seem to think that I said you shouldn't post your images on APUG, that was not my message, only that I didn't want the firewall jockies at my company to turn APUG off, which they have done from time to time with photo.net for whatever reason. I was unaware that the thumbnail could be turned off on the sidebar and have now done so. Of course I wrote this from home and not my work computer because heaven forbid someone actually take a few minutes during a lunch break to read the forums.