Should I Stop Posting Images?

vic vic · Sep 5, 2008

in the work , people should work mainly ... and if one does want to "escape" the work by sneacking a look into apug gallery, no worries, most likely there will be plenty of rocks and branches and alike all around that "offenseve" nude picture so that the person will not be "suspected" that he/she is visiting porn site during the work .... just dont open the thumbnail... and dont be shy if u see tits like teenager that just discovered the issue ...

otherwise .... how Narrowminded a person should be to feel offenssive by a couple of tits ???????? i will not start explaining all the philosophical stuff here ..... just narrow minded, idiotism ... does this person walks in the street in the metal protective balloon ? or having sex through huge peice of cloth with a little hole to make kids ? or just like to repeat that archaic taboos ???????? i have heard this type of things .... rediculos ..... offensive offensive ..... grow up and it will not be offenssive

garry, as i already noted on your photos, and many people here too value your work ... it is a very good documentary works, in attitude, style, subject ... im just looking at your work as slowly as u upload, and i can only feel how it intensifies in my view too ... very good work, like a cold water (and that is most valuable thing in documentary stuff) ...

Jeff Bannow · Sep 5, 2008

Just wanted to add my voice into the chorus - keep the images coming. Provocative is a good thing.

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

Ok, is there anyone that can say "Yes, please stop posting your photographs" and can state their opinion intelligently?

Michael W · Sep 5, 2008

The images don't bother me at all, however I can understand that some people might find them offensive. I don't think it reflects badly on people who are offended & I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol that is being directed at them. If we are open minded enough to appreciate the rationale behind pictures of sex workers then surely that same open mindedness can extend to understanding why some people don't want to see such explicit material displayed at APUG.

If I was taking photos like this I probably wouldn't be posting them on 'general public' sites such as APUG, rangefinderforum, photo.net etc. I'd host them on my own blog or website or find a forum that is dedicated to no holds barred documentary photography & post them there, where people would have some expectation of what they are likely to see.

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

goldie said:
If I was taking photos like this I probably wouldn't be posting them on 'general public' sites such as APUG, rangefinderforum, photo.net etc. I'd host them on my own blog or website or find a forum that is dedicated to no holds barred documentary photography & post them there, where people would have some expectation of what they are likely to see.

That amounts to self-censorship though. Its like publishing a political magazine and hiding it at the very back of the store where only the ones who know can find it.
I mean, of course one can understand why such images would be offensive to some. But should we really care what the Taliban and rednecks of the world really want when they instead of ignoring material they don't like, want the rest of the world to conform to their desires?

Stephen Frizza · Sep 5, 2008

This body of work is fine, but can we see more works from you of a different nature? ide like to get a feel for what other bodies of work you have undertaken.

r-brian · Sep 5, 2008

Having looked at your first posting of an image, the first thing that came to my mind was exploitive people being exploited more. Having read your explanation, I see what you are trying to accomplish. But I don't think posting one at a time accomplishes your goal. If this is a body of work that as a whole is supposed to cause people to react and some greater good is to come out of that reaction, than post the photos as a body. The Portfolio section would be a better place, not the general gallery.

A second thought, as a father, not all that view this forum are over 18.

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

r-brian said:
A second thought, as a father, not all that view this forum are over 18.

So, what?
What does that mean? As a "father"? Is that a title? Are you being a representative of all males who have children in this planet? Do you speak in behalf of all of them? Does that title make your opinion weight more?
If children are seeing "controversial" images and are being shocked and corrupted by them, it is the sole the responsibility of their guardians.
And what do you mean "not all are over 18"? By who's country's law? This is the Internet, it belongs no country. If there is a problem with the hosting company being situated in a specific country, I am sure Sean would have taken care of it. There is no law in my country about that magic 18 years old number that specifically targets content on the Internet.
If you live in Iran or North Korea, should the rest abide by your law and culture?

This is getting tiring. I've repeat myself a hundred times over this course of the time I've been on APUG. It makes no sense to repeat and repeat and repeat the same things all over again.
Hey, if you don't like something, don't look at it. Otherwise, tough luck.
Be responsible, be mature, be smart. And don't try to play the Enforcer.
Mature people like to be able to enjoy the content they like freely, without being told what to look at and what not.

Mike Té · Sep 5, 2008

Your photographs for the most part treat your subjects with dignity, Gerry. This, I think, is what makes this provocative body of work valid and presentable. What I mean by presentable is that viewers will sense that treatment with dignity (it shows through) and therefore will give the photos the time they deserve for the reflection and consideration intended.

Michael W · Sep 5, 2008

arigram said:
That amounts to self-censorship though. Its like publishing a political magazine and hiding it at the very back of the store where only the ones who know can find it.
I mean, of course one can understand why such images would be offensive to some. But should we really care what the Taliban and rednecks of the world really want when they instead of ignoring material they don't like, want the rest of the world to conform to their desires?

I don't think it's self-censorship, just a case of finding the best outlet for the work. I also don't buy your analogy of the political magazine. If it's a magazine dedicated to politics then we know what to expect when we open it & have no cause for complaint when we do open it & find content we don't like.
I also think you are using an extreme example by suggesting that the people offended by this work are rednecks & Taliban. They might also be perfectly decent, gentle people who simply don't want to look at explicit material & until recently would have had no expectation of seeing such in an APUG gallery. Let's face it, APUG has always been pretty much a 'trees & rocks' & 'how long to leave the film in the dev' type site. You suggest they should be ignoring this material but I don't see how that's possible when it shows up in the gallery index.

removed account4 · Sep 5, 2008

maybe people who are viewing apug at work shouldn't be surfing
the internet at work .. ?

i have young kids, and i keep things away from them that i don't want them
to see, just like i don't let them watch the nightly news, or listen to the news on the radio.
...that is part of being a parent.

i can understand your concerns though, and think if you are worried
about the gallery thumbnails you should
remove the gallery thumbnails from the side bar ( customize your apug sidebar),
and view the gallery thumbnails without your kids in the room.

i don't think apug is a "rocks and trees" site .. maybe to some it is,
but i think there are other things in the gallery than "nature shots"

thanks gerry.

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

goldie said:
I don't think it's self-censorship, just a case of finding the best outlet for the work. I also don't buy your analogy of the political magazine. If it's a magazine dedicated to politics then we know what to expect when we open it & have no cause for complaint when we do open it & find content we don't like.

Maybe I was too specific then.
Let's make the analogy even more close to home:
- Should a Fine Art Photography magazine, like the ones people buy here (B&W, Lenswork, etc) be moved to the porno section because it might have a nude or semi-nude in the cover?
I find the french Photo always in the Photography section of the news stand, not at the porno section, no matter the cover image.

I also think you are using an extreme example by suggesting that the people offended by this work are rednecks & Taliban. They might also be perfectly decent, gentle people who simply don't want to look at explicit material & until recently would have had no expectation of seeing such in an APUG gallery.

It is not an extreme example by my standards. Rednecks and Taliban ARE mostly perfectly decent, gentle people but who have specific moral, religious and cultural values and can be very intolerant of anything that goes against them. I personally have no trouble with that, nor do want them necesseraly to change their views of the world. Their beliefs are their beliefs and I respect that.
What crosses the line though is when they are enforcing their views on the rest. Now, that strips them of the "decent, gentle" titles.
If somebody doesn't want to see something, S/HE DOESN'T LOOK!

Let's face it, APUG has always been pretty much a 'trees & rocks' & 'how long to leave the film in the dev' type site. You suggest they should be ignoring this material but I don't see how that's possible when it shows up in the gallery index.

Why should I care what other people in APUG like or dislike?
I like photography. I use film. There it is. Nothing more.
There is no mention of APUG being officially a photography site specifically for the conservative and intolerant ones.
When it comes to photography sites actually APUG is very, very tame. Go look at the photography in other forums. Go take a look what is posted in DevianArt for example.
I do NOT want APUG to become a "trees & rocks" kind of site. If it becomes it is of the active enforcing of a tiny minority of members. Do you think that just because one takes photos of landscapes, the only photos (s)he wants to see are of the same kind?
People in APUG want to see photography. The specifics are that it has to made by film. No other rules are given regarding content.

r-brian · Sep 5, 2008

arigram said:
So, what?
What does that mean? As a "father"? Is that a title? Are you being a representative of all males who have children in this planet? Do you speak in behalf of all of them? Does that title make your opinion weight more?
If children are seeing "controversial" images and are being shocked and corrupted by them, it is the sole the responsibility of their guardians.
And what do you mean "not all are over 18"? By who's country's law? This is the Internet, it belongs no country. If there is a problem with the hosting company being situated in a specific country, I am sure Sean would have taken care of it. There is no law in my country about that magic 18 years old number that specifically targets content on the Internet.
If you live in Iran or North Korea, should the rest abide by your law and culture?

This is getting tiring. I've repeat myself a hundred times over this course of the time I've been on APUG. It makes no sense to repeat and repeat and repeat the same things all over again.
Hey, if you don't like something, don't look at it. Otherwise, tough luck.
Be responsible, be mature, be smart. And don't try to play the Enforcer.
Mature people like to be able to enjoy the content they like freely, without being told what to look at and what not.

It's nice to see that we're such a bastion of liberalism here. Fact is, there are certain societal controls that do exist.

Should there be a disclaimer prior to entering the gallery? Maybe, maybe not.

As a father, it is my job to control what my children are exposed to. And I take my job very seriously. That said, I'm also an extremely liberal person. [Moderator's note--ad hominem remark deleted]

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

r-brian said:
As a father, it is my job to control what my children are exposed to. And I take my job very seriously.

Then do your job and let us be.
If personal attacks and cuss words is all you can muster, well done, that's a great way to discuss maturely a subject.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 5, 2008

Enough of the ad hominem, please, gentlemen.

Joe VanCleave · Sep 5, 2008

Obviously the honorable thing to do for those logging onto APUG while on their employer's time is to quit doing so. Perhaps then the resulting drop in traffic will be noticed by Sean, and changes made to make surfing the site while on one's break at work (i.e. on one's own time, but using company intranet) safer.

[Moderator's note--response to edited post deleted.]

~Joe

Anupam Basu · Sep 5, 2008

Gerry, keep on posting! Maybe you can print them on AZO and add some blather about highlight separation to make them less offensive. I wish there were more gritty work and a little less tree-trunks and clouds on APUG!

resummerfield · Sep 5, 2008

Yes, Gerry, keep on posting!

TheDreadPirateRobins · Sep 5, 2008

As a father myself, I think it is my responsibility to decide what my children see and what they are ready for and to raise them in such a way that they can think critically for themselves when they become adults.

They won't pick this up all on their own upon their 18th birthday, and they won't grow up if I try to sanitize all possible influences in the world in an effort to raise them in a bubble.

As a father, I say you should keep posting your images. I find them challenging - especially the sex-worker context - and it does make me a little uneasy but I didn't come here to be bored to death. I am fine with that. My kids are not subscribers and won't be checking them out this year (they're in kindergarten), but some day I think they ought to be able to learn from your images more about your subjects.

TheDreadPirateRobins · Sep 5, 2008

jnanian said:
maybe people who are viewing apug at work shouldn't be surfing
the internet at work .. ?

i have young kids, and i keep things away from them that i don't want them
to see, just like i don't let them watch the nightly news, or listen to the news on the radio.
...that is part of being a parent.

Exactly my thoughts on both counts.

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

TheDreadPirateRobins said:
As a father myself, I think it is my responsibility to decide what my children see and what they are ready for and to raise them in such a way that they can think critically for themselves when they become adults.

They won't pick this up all on their own upon their 18th birthday, and they won't grow up if I try to sanitize all possible influences in the world in an effort to raise them in a bubble.

As a father, I say you should keep posting your images. I find them challenging - especially the sex-worker context - and it does make me a little uneasy but I didn't come here to be bored to death. I am fine with that. My kids are not subscribers and won't be checking them out this year (they're in kindergarten), but some day I think they ought to be able to learn from your images more about your subjects.

Now, this is an intelligent, mature father who will raise wise children capable of understanding the world and be compassionate against other humans.
I applaud your approach and thinking.
If the photographs of those poor sex workers shock them, they will have a better comprehension of the evils of the world and may even help make this a better place.

Michael W · Sep 5, 2008

arigram said:
Why should I care what other people in APUG like or dislike?

Well, that's where we differ. I do try to have some sympathy for & understanding of other people, no matter what their beliefs, or how different they are from mine. That's why I'm trying to present a plausible reason why some may reasonably take offence. I just want to make clear once again that I am not bothered by the photos. I'm perfectly happy for Gerry to keep posting them. However if it was my project I would do something like - post some of the tamer ones in the APUG gallery & have a link in my signature directing people to my website to see the full set.

arigram · Sep 5, 2008

goldie said:
Well, that's where we differ. I do try to have some sympathy for & understanding of other people, no matter what their beliefs, or how different they are from mine.

How do we differ? Have I given the impression that I am intolerant or not understanding of others? Didn't I mention in my reply to you that I even comprehend the extremism of some people and do not force my thinking to them? What I ask, is them, not to force my thinking on me, or any other person, especially when one has the option of personally not accepting any content that is disliked.

JBrunner · Sep 5, 2008

goldie said:
The images don't bother me at all, however I can understand that some people might find them offensive. I don't think it reflects badly on people who are offended & I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol that is being directed at them. If we are open minded enough to appreciate the rationale behind pictures of sex workers then surely that same open mindedness can extend to understanding why some people don't want to see such explicit material displayed at APUG.

If I was taking photos like this I probably wouldn't be posting them on 'general public' sites such as APUG, rangefinderforum, photo.net etc. I'd host them on my own blog or website or find a forum that is dedicated to no holds barred documentary photography & post them there, where people would have some expectation of what they are likely to see.

The APUG gallery is not a "general public" site. You must subscribe, and you must log in to the site as a subscriber. Members and surfers do not have access to the galleries.

Regarding children and work- very nasty things- porn that calls it self porn and strives to be the most, and more, are available with feeble effort. Shouldn't be much of an effort for responsible people to avoid a black and white photograph posted among hundreds in a subscriber only gallery. Can't surf APUG at work because some of uber prude in your office hierarchy? That's a problem that is squarely yours. Boo friggin hoo.

Maybe we should be sensitive to everybody, and put all women in burkas? Oh that's just being silly? Silly as worrying over some nips and a willy. You can't be "considerate" of the prudish and their fairy tale world, or next you need to be considerate of the book burner.

codejoy · Sep 5, 2008

I haven't been able to click further since they are NSFW and I am at work, but from what I saw they seemed to be very well done (yes going by the tiny thumbnail). Saw the explanation as to the series, sounds like good work.

Should I Stop Posting Images?

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