Shopping for first TLR, a few questions

[Christophoto]

Been lurking a bit but I'm new both to here and to analog (first roll of 35mm film is sitting in my first film camera since the point and shoots I had as a kid, chems are in the mail). I've been wanting to get a 6x6 and am drawn toward TLRs, specifically Rolleiflexes. I'm not completely opposed to other brands but I have a clear preference for the Rollei style. I want to find a nice one in excellent condition, but keep in mind I want a user, not a collector, so quality over rarity or prestige.

Being that this would be my first MF camera, I'd probably take it hiking, and I'm kind of testing the waters, so I'd like to keep the prices down. I still don't really want to sacrifice much on quality or durability, just not interested in trendy special features.

I prefer to buy from known people on classifieds or reputable shops like keh, eBay is a last resort. I know a CLA is likely going to be needed, but are there any shops that at least test and certify performance before a sale? I know CLA is an eventuality but it would be nice to know I was at least buying one that didn't need it right away so I could get some use out of it first. What are some good online stores? Keh doesn't have any and I've only found some on one store page in the UK.

Finally, I think I found one I like, but the price made me cautious. It's on the site if a reputable store. It's labeled as a standard MX, but by the photos to me I think it's an MX-EVS. It's only $200 while T models in similar condition are $350 and others are significantly more. From what I could tell by research the MX are pretty good, and I didn't read about any deficiencies compared to other typical 3.5s. I did come across a Rollei technician that on his page said that he doesn't service T models because they're inferior to other 'flexes and he can't warranty them, and equates them as being closer to a Rolleicord. Where does the MX and MX-EVS stand? Are they skimped on or as good of quality? Wondering if the price is right because they aren't trendy or because they aren't as good. I've read that T prices are inflated because they're trending.

Sorry for the long first post, my brain is getting scattered from too much reading about these online.

Edit: I should probably mention my budget. While I liked the $200 price of that MX, that isn't my budget cap. I'm willing to spend about double that. That could be that MX and a CLA, or $450 or so for one that doesn't need a CLA. I think $500 on one that already needed a CLA would be pushing my budget further than I wanted for a first camera. I'm sure I'll end up there eventually though. That's the main reason I ask if any stores test and certify their cameras. Whether or not it needs an immediate trip to the shop has a significant effect on my budget.

 

[summicron1]

T-models have a premium to collectors and because they're gray and the shutter button is off to the side. Plus the T-models don't have the automatic film load feature.

The MX-EVS is a vastly superior camera, pro-level, highest quality. Why it would cost less, I have no clue, but if yu can get a good working model for $200 you should buy it.

 

[Christophoto]

Thanks for the quick reply! I'm thinking it's an EVS based on the aperture, shutter, and focus knob styles, but I'm still a beginner so I could be off. Assuming it's really just an MX, is that still a good buy? I know the EVS added some nice features like a brighter viewfinder, if I remember what I read correctly.

 

[BrianShaw]

A less expensive but equally competent option would be a late model, Vb, Rolleicord. A decent camera plus servicing would fit in your budget quite comfortable. It's a light camera so hiking with it is very comfortable. With your spare change you could buy a monopod and Rolleifix quick release. That's the ideal travel kit. I did that for about 20 years.

 

[John Koehrer]

KEH does give a warrantee but don't seem to have any right now

 

[obscura.lucida]

An MX-EVS model is an excellent place to start, as is a Rolleicord. The one possible immediate drawback with the MX-EVS is that it's older, than say a Rolleicord Vb.

The age is a drawback simply because many of these 'flexes have passed through many hands at this point. Given that, the chance of getting one that is in excellent shape overall is arguably slim. It's possible, but difficult, especially if you're very exacting about the condition. For example, getting one with a perfect taking lens (say, with no coating issues or cleaning marks) might be difficult. But, on the other hand, getting one that has an excellent film transport or focusing mechanism is definitely doable. Bottom line is that just be clear of what you want and what you're wiling to put up with, etc.

Other advice would be not to underestimate how dim the original focusing screens are on these older Rolleis. As you probably know, the MX-EVS has a fixed hood, so the screen is not readily exchangeable by design. Also, one thing to keep in mind when buying Rolleiflexes is to make sure that the backs are not bent. Bent backs are often a result of not using a Rolleifix when mounting a 'flex on a tripod.

Anyhow, as someone who has gone through this process several times with these 'flexes, I say good luck on your search! They're wonderful cameras, a joy to use especially if they're in tip-top shape.

 

[Chrismat]

I have an MX-EVS, it's really nice. Does the place that is selling the Rolleiflex you're considering have a return option? I wouldn't get it if it didn't. There are many very good tlrs out there. I just purchase and had cla'd a Minolta Autocord, great lens.

 

[Dali]

Rolleicord, Yashica Mat, Minolta Autocord, we are within your price ballpark. Rolleiflex and not THAT better than Rolleicord unless you want the top of the line (and we are over your budget). Like with every camera, the most important is to know how to use it.

 

[pthornto]

I own a Rolleiflex MX, a K4A model from ~1952 or so. I think I lucked out on it as everything has worked well since I bought it 8 years ago. In handling it you definitely appreciate the way it was put together and how things just click. I'm planning on having it serviced soon just so that I can keep using it for a good while yet. Yes the screen is dim but honestly in any situation where I can safely handhold, it is usually bright enough that I am able to focus.

As for the quality of the lens, I think the Tessars or Xenars are great. I've taken some of my favorite pics with this camera. The rendering is great for people shots and I love using it for photos of my kids. Comparing it to other medium format cameras it is very light and easy to pack along (I also own an RB67 which is arguably on the other end of the spectrum for size and weight). So anyhow, it is a cheaper model than the later rollei's but in my opinion is good value. Agree that finding an example that is in good condition for a 60yr + camera is challenging.

 

[Dan Daniel]

$200 for an MX-EVS is low. Even for an MX (look at the dials between the lenses- the EVS models have numberson the left dial and a silver button in the middle of the right dial; this button changes shape over time). So most likely it will need some work. If the shop will guarantee it, give it a shot.

The MX and MX-EVS are top of the line. They were made as Rollei developed the lettered models that use Planar and Xenotar lenses instead of the Tessar or Xenar of the MX series. By the time Rollei was making the MX series they had pretty well figured everything out on mechanics. The letter models made at the same time as the MX series are basically the same inside. There were additions in later models, and some finessing of the mechanics, but the basic MX and basic letter cameras share most mechanisms.

The Rolleiflex T has some weird stuff inside but one in working shape is a good camera. But yeah, there's a premium that seems a bit out of place for a user.

I tend toward Minolta Autocords for Tessar-type TLRs. The focus system is pretty well bomb proof, good for having in a bag or backpack.The overall finish isn't to the same level as the Rolleiflexes but they are well made and solid. The lens is a bit nicer than the Tessar in my opinion.

Rolleicords are nice, and the Xenar lens is a great lens often overlooked (your $200 MX might have a Xenar, dropping the price a bit; DO NOT be put off- it's a name thing, not a quality thing; save money and get a great lens with a Xenar).

Condition is the key. Drop me a note if you have any interest in a CLA'd Autocord or Rolleicord.

 

[Christophoto]

Thanks for the info. I was originally hesitant to say where I found it because I thought I was going to buy it and didn't want to advertise it haha. I think I'm going to hold off for now and look around a bit more, there's still a lot I need to figure out first. Here's the link to the one I was looking at. If it really is a good deal from a good source I might pick it up if nobody else does, but I'd like to see more choices instead of just grabbing the first one I find. It is a Tessar and they do mention light hairline scratches to the front, I didn't think that would be visible in photos.

As to the Rolleicord, I know it's silly reasoning, but I'll admit to having an initial preference for a 'flex because "it's better", "it looks cooler", "it has a lever winder instead of a knob", etc. I don't really have a good reason to prefer one over the other haha. The only valid concern I can think of is quality from a durability standpoint. Are the 'cords as durable as 'flexes as it pertains to longevity, ability to maintain tune, etc? I'm careful with my gear so I don't need it to be drop-proof, but if a cord won't last as long or will need to be CLA'd more often that kind of negates the initial savings.

Edit: Same question regarding other budget options, Autocord, etc. As far as durability and reliability. Part of the appeal of a flex to me is the possible misconception that it will last longer between tunes, be less likely to break down, in general be much higher quality, etc.

http://mwclassic.com/product/rollei...h-75mm-f3-5-tessar-in-synchro-compur-shutter/

 

[BrianShaw]

Your concern about Rolleicord durability is not valid. Sorry for being so blunt but you are grasping at straws on that one.

 

[Christophoto]

Please do be blunt, that's what I need to hear. So a Rolleicord is as reliable? That helps, thanks.

 

[BrianShaw]

Yes it is. In some ways even more reliable because the film counter mechanism is more simple. In other ways perhaps less because the cocking/release lever is open. I traveled with a Rolleicord Vb for about 20 years. I'm careful with my gear too but didn't hesitate to take it anywhere I wanted to go. That included motorcycle and helicopter touring. I had it overhauled hen I got it (it was 20 years old, barely used but the cocking lever "dragged" a bit) and a decade later for the same issue. The shutter, including self-timer was always reliable as was the film transport. In my experience it has been a highly reliable camera.

 

[BrianShaw]

Oh, and back in 1983 or so when I got the camera I was just like you. Same desire to get into MF; same assumptions about 'flex vs 'cord; same interest in the cool crank vs knob. It took about half a roll of film to get over that.

 

[trondsi]

I am very happy with my Rolleiflex Automat, with Tessar lens. These tend to be cheaper than the 3.5 and 2.8 models with planar lenses, but the quality is still outstanding.

 

[mshchem]

You have good taste. I have a mountain of stuff, don't fail to consider if you can find a super clean Yashica. Don't forget Rollei went broke Yashica was absorbed by Kyocera. Multi billion dollar corporation . A CLA'ed Yashica is a great light camera.
Mamiya TLRs are tanks but are very cool. Not fun to lug around. I wouldn't worry about Flex vs. Cord if it just for taking pictures. If however you have the budget I would get a really nice clean model that you won't want to trade in 6 months. I like nice clean toys
Good luck, Mike

 

[Ko.Fe.]

It is OK to taste waters and hike with Rolleicord. After I've tried it with two different models, I didn't went Rolleiflex and all Japanese all of the sudden feels like knock offs

 

[Christophoto]

Just casually looking around eBay and elsewhere it almost seems like the Rolleicord Vb is worth as much or more than a lot of Rolleiflex 3.5s, but I think a lot of that is because the ones I saw were in really nice condition. Quick question, I know the Vb is recommended because it's the youngest, but are there features that make it important to look for or are there other Cords that aren't worth as much but are as good?

 

[baachitraka]

Go for 3.5C or E in some parts of the world. And of-course without a meter.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Your concern about Rolleicord durability is not valid.

I'm going to disagree with this. And at the same time, for all practical purposes I have to agree with this

The Rolleicord is simply not built to the same level of finish and durability as the Rolleiflex. Having been inside many of both models, this is just a fact. Metal parts are thicker and better finished throughout the 'Flex. Look at the strap lug pieces on the 'Flex and 'Cord. The same differences exist on most parts inside the camera. The 'Flex was built to be serviced and overhauled repeatedly through its life. There are very real reasons the 'Flexes and 'Cords sold at such different prices. Rollei marketed the cameras to different groups- professionals and amateurs- for very real reasons.

Then again, how many people are running fifteen rolls of film a day through their camera? Shooting day after day for years on end? "Flexes were built to stand up to sustained use, the kind of use a professional photographer in 1955 would give it. The odds of any one here using a TLR to that level is pretty minimal. So, for all practical purposes, the 'Cord will hold up as well as a 'Flex. Sure, the parts aren't as thick, for example, but still, it's stainless steel and you will NOT wear it out.

All Rolleicord models are built to the same level. The Vb has the removable finder, which is cool... but how many people ever use that function? The double exposure prevention of the IV and later 'Cords is the one solid improvement. Well, I learned quick enough with a Rolleicord III how to avoid double exposures and blank frames, so this difference is nice but not really needed. The basic wind mechanism is the same and the guts are the same. Actually, the Vb has a plastic gear for one of its most important parts, but as I was saying above, little chance any of us will put enough miles on a TLR to wear this out.

Oh, the MX linked to mentions hairline scratches on the taking lens. This is probably why it is at that price. I'd be careful- sometimes a seller will be more than honest and claim scratches that you can barely see in the best of lighting. Other times the exact same phrasing can mean the previous owner used their shirt tail to scrub the lens on a regular basis.

 

[Toyo]

I can understand the attraction of the Rollei TLR's from a romantic perspective and I, too lusted after them. However, I found that the Mamiya was a much better platform with a good range of interchangeable lenses that the Rolleis could not match.
I finally decided on a C330, and have been shooting with it for about thirty years.
I recommend it to you to consider
T

 

[Christophoto]

I can understand the attraction of the Rollei TLR's from a romantic perspective and I, too lusted after them. However, I found that the Mamiya was a much better platform with a good range of interchangeable lenses that the Rolleis could not match.
I finally decided on a C330, and have been shooting with it for about thirty years.
I recommend it to you to consider
T

Yeah, I've seen those. I want one of them as well haha.

 

[guangong]

Bite the bullet and get a working rollei e or f. These cameras are rugged and will last beyond your lifetime, even if you are now in your teens. All of the other tlr mentioned have inherent weaknesses. In 1960 I had a Minolta autocord...wonderful pics but focusing lever has a fatale flaw. Save your pennies up and get the best rollei you can afford. You will never regret it. By the way, I have dropped mine numerous times with no tragic results. In earlier days some people kept thei Rolleis in the trunk of their cars as an always ready camera...but not recommended!

 

[Toyo]

Yeah, I've seen those. I want one of them as well haha.

My first TLR was a Yashica 635.
I took quite a few very nice images with it before I wanted a TLR with interchangeable lenses.
The C330 filled the bill and I have been a happy camper ever since. Along the way I have added the 55mm, 105mm 135mm and 180mm lenses which cover all that I need from this camera.
It is now in need of new light seals in the back and that is a job for the next holidays.
Cheers
T