Serious F5 love

[MartinCrabtree]

If exposure is difficult and it's important I get the shot right first time I'll use the appropriate method. Sometimes spot,others center weighted. All in all my favorite camera.

 

[pentaxuser]

My understanding of Matrix Metering is that it is based on a kind of an extensive memory bank of say 30,000 exposures of what must be in 30,000 exposure a memory of almost every scene possible, hence its claimed "near infallibility " in terms of arriving at the correct exposure for those who "let the camera do the work". I presume that these 30,000 exposures of scenes and light conditions etc were somehow measured. Is by what were they measured? I think but do not know that the F6's matrixing metering is based on an even bigger data bank than the F5 which may or may not be based on a bigger bank that the F100, F4 etc in a descending order. So the bigger the bank the better the metering until in an infinite amount of data, the percentage of correctly exposed scenes taken by the camera will approach 100%

Allowing for my no doubt over simplification of what matrix metering consists of, I am still unclear of why this databank of scenes etc built into the matrix metering has resulted in a better system for slides as opposed to C41 films

There has to be reason why this databank on which Nikon bases its matrix metering is better suited to slide film than C41, doesn't there?

I am looking simply for known facts that will improve my knowledge by using what I hope is a form of Socratic questioning. For this purpose I want to continue this part of the thread in that atmosphere.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Eric Rose]

I am looking simply for known facts that will improve my knowledge by using what I hope is a form of Socratic questioning. For this purpose I want to continue this part of the thread in that atmosphere.

Thanks

pentaxuser

I almost spit my coffee out when I read this. You do realize you are on Photrio?? It can be done, I've seen it, but it's hard work to keep the dick heads out. Good luck.

Maybe it's been said before in this thread and I apologize if it has, but it seems if the commenters are correct it appears Matrix metering exposes for the highlights as is needed for transparencies. Personally I have used matrix metering for probably 90% of my image making with the F5 and that includes C41. I have never had a problem with under exposed shadows. But then again I use the + and - exposure feature a lot. It just boils down to experience and knowing your gear. I know when the meter is going to get fooled and compensate for it almost without thinking. Matrix metering gets me almost there without a bunch of spot measurements thereby saving me time.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Eric. You are right. We do get into unnecessary trouble more quickly than we should on occasions, often to the detriment of those who seek to understand subjects in which they have no "axe to grind" other than to increase their knowledge They can only do that by asking and if something doesn't make sense, by probing deeper.

Glad you managed to not spit out your coffee. Given the different history of Canada and its links to GB, I have never quite worked out why it isn't tea but that's a thread for another occasion

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

I almost spit my coffee out when I read this. You do realize you are on Photrio?? It can be done, I've seen it, but it's hard work to keep the dick heads out. Good luck.

Maybe it's been said before in this thread and I apologize if it has, but it seems if the commenters are correct it appears Matrix metering exposes for the highlights as is needed for transparencies. Personally I have used matrix metering for probably 90% of my image making with the F5 and that includes C41. I have never had a problem with under exposed shadows. But then again I use the + and - exposure feature a lot. It just boils down to experience and knowing your gear. I know when the meter is going to get fooled and compensate for it almost without thinking. Matrix metering gets me almost there without a bunch of spot measurements thereby saving me time.

Here it is from the mouth of Eric Rose: It just boils down to experience and knowing your gear.​

 

[Eric Rose]

Glad you managed to not spit out your coffee. Given the different history of Canada and its links to GB, I have never quite worked out why it isn't tea but that's a thread for another occasion

pentaxuser

I'm of Scottish descent. Now Scottish vs British, that's a soapbox thread if I ever saw one lol.

 

[Eric Rose]

Here it is from the mouth of Eric Rose: It just boils down to experience and knowing your gear.​

Pretty profound eh

 

[Sirius Glass]

Pretty profound eh

Yes, pearls of wisdom.

 

[Huss]

Here it is from the mouth of Eric Rose: It just boils down to experience and knowing your gear.​

It does not mention Eric Rose in the manual. At all.


But that’s ok as we agree now that you have backtracked on your read the manual statements. Experience with matrix metering shows it exposes for highlights/backlights which is the opposite of what is needed for c41 films.
Either way i use heavy center or spot readings in conjuction w the AE lock button so i get the exposures that I want.

 

[Chan Tran]

It does not mention Eric Rose in the manual. At all.


But that’s ok as we agree now that you have backtracked on your read the manual statements. Experience with matrix metering shows it exposes for highlights/backlights which is the opposite of what is needed for c41 films.
Either way i use heavy center or spot readings in conjuction w the AE lock button so i get the exposures that I want.

Perhaps it's in the special version of the manual that only elites have.

 

[pentaxuser]

Experience with matrix metering shows it exposes for highlights/backlights which is the opposite of what is needed for c41 films.
.

Any idea as to why matrix metering does tnis? Is this intrinsically true for all cameras with matrix metering such as Canon, Pentax etc or was matrix metering the sole province of Nikon. Was this something that was a conscious decision by Nikon or is there something in matrix metering that makes it expose for the highlights?

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

But that’s ok as we agree now that you have backtracked on your read the manual statements.

Sez whom?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have always known how to use the AE lock button from the first time I read the manual. I guess some of us get it and others don't.

 

[Eric Rose]

Any idea as to why matrix metering does tnis? Is this intrinsically true for all cameras with matrix metering such as Canon, Pentax etc or was matrix metering the sole province of Nikon. Was this something that was a conscious decision by Nikon or is there something in matrix metering that makes it expose for the highlights?

pentaxuser

I think the rational for matrix metering favouring slides is due to the fact that pros shooting for magazines and stock were required to submit transparencies.

 

[film_man]

I think by now it should be clear to all that the only solution to their metering issues is to get a Hasselblad.

(this is satire, either you get it or you don't)

 

[MattKing]

I'm not sure that Matrix metering favours transparency film.
I expect that Matrix metering favours exposure that accurately renders highlight detail, because mid-tone and highlight detail have the largest effect on our perception of print (or slide) quality.
If your end goal with negative film is machine prints, accurate rendition of highlight detail will yield the best prints.
The ISO standard is designed around subjective "best machine print" standards.
If like many of us you have the opportunity to make custom prints from your negatives, you may wish to add extra exposure to that which is recommended by your matrix meter, because the controls available to you permit recovery of the highlight detail that might otherwise be minimized in a "straight" print.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Matrix metering favors good exposures for both slides and negatives. Of course one needs to keep the sun out of the metering area and watch for back lighting. Most of the matrix meter AF cameras even have a setting for back lighting.

 

[Chan Tran]

Matrix metering favors good exposures for both slides and negatives. Of course one needs to keep the sun out of the metering area and watch for back lighting. Most of the matrix meter AF cameras even have a setting for back lighting.

Yeah it's must be in the manual.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks all. I think Eric Rose was simply suggesting a "rationale" as to why Nikon may have tried to ensure that matrix metering met with the need to get highlight detail correct "in camera", so to speak, due to the professionals' need to submit transparencies. I don't think that Eric is saying that he knows that Nikon designed the matrix metering that way, merely that the rationale fitted the business model of transparencies when the F5 was introduced.

It is an attractive rationale and to my mind(my interpretation only of Matt's post) it is further supported to an extent by Matt King's useful post on machine prints which at the time when analogue was king was probably the vast majority of prints users obtained.

I have had a useful exchange of PMs with Chan Tran and trying to summarise that I'd say that on balance there is broader agreement than might at first appear that while matrix metering may favour slides as highlight detail can only be "caught" in camera there is a whole host of scenes and conditions in which matrix metering renders colour neg and perhaps to an even greater extent B&W correct as well. Living in a flat light, low SBR climate in the U.K. for most of the time then unless the user has very exacting standards he might never notice any problem at all with C41 negs and prints or B&W film and prints thereof.

As Matt says and others also, if you produce your own prints and want the best, you have controls on the camera to enable you to do it.

pentaxuser

 

[Eric Rose]

End of story. Now it's time to go to sleep.

 

[Sirius Glass]

End of story. Now it's time to go to sleep.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[benjiboy]

I was tempted by a used F5 that my local camera store had in stock in mint condition but notwithstanding its wonderful technical innovations when I picked it up it was just too heavy.

 

[Chan Tran]

I was tempted by a used F5 that my local camera store had in stock in mint condition but notwithstanding its wonderful technical innovations when I picked it up it was just too heavy.

I love the weight of the F5.

 

[pentaxuser]

I love the weight of the F5.

I imagine the problem of weight and this applies to all cameras is not in the lifting to the eye and taking the exposure which occurs only occasionally and for a few seconds only at a time. It is the weight of it dangling around the neck while walking around for maybe an hour or two as can happen at say outdoor carnivals or other events where spontaneity is important. I have a holster for my much lighter Pentax which is fine but if I suddenly see a picture that needs immediate action the holster prevents this happening to a large extent.

It has always struck me that a kind of open holster like Marty Robbins' "ranger with the big iron on his hip" is what is needed Are there such things? What do people for carrying a F5 conveniently enough for such spontaneous shots?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Chan Tran]

I imagine the problem of weight and this applies to all cameras is not in the lifting to the eye and taking the exposure which occurs only occasionally and for a few seconds only at a time. It is the weight of it dangling around the neck while walking around for maybe an hour or two as can happen at say outdoor carnivals or other events where spontaneity is important. I have a holster for my much lighter Pentax which is fine but if I suddenly see a picture that needs immediate action the holster prevents this happening to a large extent.

It has always struck me that a kind of open holster like Marty Robbins' "ranger with the big iron on his hip" is what is needed Are there such things? What do people for carrying a F5 conveniently enough for such spontaneous shots?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I always carry my camera with a short neckstrap at chest level. I do that with the F5 and F3 with motor drive and they are about the same weight. I can do that for several hours without problem. When I bought my Nikon Df I found it's significantly larger than the F3 and yet weighing in about the same only a few grams different. I feel cheated because it's too light for the money.