Selenium Toning

Mustang

A
Mustang

  • 0
  • 0
  • 13
32nd Avenue

A
32nd Avenue

  • 0
  • 0
  • 27
Saab

A
Saab

  • 0
  • 0
  • 51
Chevy Van

A
Chevy Van

  • 1
  • 0
  • 52

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
182,064
Messages
2,519,659
Members
95,487
Latest member
coralluxurycleaning
Recent bookmarks
0

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
9,335
Location
Humboldt Co.
Shooter
Large Format
It's been awhile, but I selenium toned Portriga Rapid and Gallerie. The Gallerie I would tone to completion...it just picked up a little more punch to the blacks and took the paper to a neutral tone. The Portriga Rapid (warm tone paper) had to be carefully done (including the fix time) and it was timed to just get rid of the green and slightly move it into a lovely reddish brown. Too far and I'd get a purplish black...back in the days of heavy metals in the emulsions, I suppose.

The OP's subject does lend itself to a warmer tone. The reason for the two papers above was that some light shines better either warm or neutral to me. The light off the desert just seemed to get muddy on my warm-tone papers, and the redwoods loved the warmth it rarely sees up here.
 

Tim Stapp

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Messages
436
Location
Big Rapids, MI
Shooter
4x5 Format
Amazingly, to an admittedly stone color blind person: I see no significant difference (no green cast). I do like the shadows on the face better in the toned version.

Initially, the leave in the foreground appeared to be in better focus than the untoned version. But upon writing this while switching between the two, my aging eyes see that the foreground is the same in both.
 

albada

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
1,772
Location
Escondido, C
Shooter
35mm RF
A bit of trivia probably but when I look at the top shot for a few seconds and then switch to the bottom one it appears to have a very slight green look until my eyes adjust

Anyone else see this when switching?

Yes.
I thought it was my monitor.
The top looks untoned, and the bottom looks greenish.
And I don't get used to it. They always look normal/greenish.
Do you have a Dell monitor?

Mark
 

JPD

Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
1,668
Location
Sweden
Shooter
Medium Format
I blurred both to even out the light and dark and checked the colour cast with the pipette:

ColourCast.jpg
 

Cedavis2nd

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2016
Messages
11
Location
Rogers
Shooter
35mm
Just wondering which one is preferred by other viewers and perhaps why. Top image toned in Selenium 1+7 for 10 minutes; bottom image untoned. Thanks

EDIT: I realize that it could be dependent on subject matter.

Also the one seen in the gallery is toned but inadvertently scanned using gray scale, so it's not picked up.



View attachment 326944 View attachment 326945

Top looks great to me.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
41,648
Location
Delta, BC, Canada
Shooter
Multi Format
For me, the top one looks very slightly magenta/blue, and the bottom one looks fairly neutral :smile:
 

c41

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2016
Messages
216
Location
Aus
Shooter
Analog
FWIW I far prefer the toned print, I love the impact of Selenium on the shadows and your print shows this. Great job!
I always pull my prints before they start going purple. I'd love to try gold toning after selenium but haven't stumped up for the gold toner so far, one of these days.
 

koraks

Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
5,609
Location
Europe
Shooter
Multi Format
I blurred both to even out the light and dark and checked the colour cast with the pipette:

There's some weird stuff going on if you sample specific points across the image. I did this because I thought I saw something odd, and sure enough it's there if you measure it out.

Measuring on the toned print, using the a and b coordinates of Lab:
The grass on the right side just above the shoe m have slight positive a & b values (e.g. 1.1, 2.3). So they tend towards red and yellow.
The grass at the same height on the left side of the image measures near-zero or slightly negative on a, and also a little less positive (but still above 0) on b (e.g. -0.2, 0.7). So this area is slightly yellow to slightly lime. The lit cheek measures roughly the same (-0.2, 1.3).
Interestingly the sunlit patches on the sweater tend slightly towards red (0.5,1.5).

I can't tell if this is uneven toning or a problem with the scanner & post processing. The difference is subtle, of course, but it was clear enough for me to spot - I did the measurements above only to verify my hunch.

Overall I prefer the toned version; like @Andrew O'Neill I really don't care for the particular hue of green that untoned silver gel prints give.
 
OP
OP
Chuck_P

Chuck_P

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,982
Location
West KY
Shooter
4x5 Format
For me, the top one looks very slightly magenta/blue, and the bottom one looks fairly neutral :smile:

This is also how I see it as well. Many have stated it appears "warmer" whereas I see it as a bit cooler with the untoned image being neutral.
 
OP
OP
Chuck_P

Chuck_P

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,982
Location
West KY
Shooter
4x5 Format
I can't tell if this is uneven toning or a problem with the scanner & post processing

Does this help? The scanner I have is the Epson V700. The settings were: 24 bit color, 600 resolution, unsharp masking. Do weird things happen to cause issues when saving the file so that it can be uploaded? I'm fairly ignorant of proper scanning so I may be doing something not quite right, idk.
 

Anon Ymous

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
3,122
Location
Greece
Shooter
35mm
This is also how I see it as well. Many have stated it appears "warmer" whereas I see it as a bit cooler with the untoned image being neutral.

I agree that the toned image looks cooler, but I can see a light green hue in the untoned one. I suppose a lot depends on the monitor where they're being viewed.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the pink - purple of the selenium toner. I'd cut dilution and/or time to simply remove the green tint.
 
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
13,163
Location
K,Germany
Shooter
Medium Format
Just wondering which one is preferred by other viewers and perhaps why. Top image toned in Selenium 1+7 for 10 minutes; bottom image untoned. Thanks

EDIT: I realize that it could be dependent on subject matter.

Also the one seen in the gallery is toned but inadvertently scanned using gray scale, so it's not picked up.



View attachment 326944 View attachment 326945

I prefer the top image because it seems to have more contrast.
 

koraks

Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
5,609
Location
Europe
Shooter
Multi Format
I'm fairly ignorant of proper scanning so I may be doing something not quite right, idk.

I wouldn't beat myself up over it; it's a rather subtle effect anyway. Personally I wouldn't even bother spending much time on tracking it down :smile:
If I'd have to make a guess - especially if paper curls only slightly, it gets difficult to get perfectly even exposure when scanning a print. Perhaps it's something like that.
 
OP
OP
Chuck_P

Chuck_P

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,982
Location
West KY
Shooter
4x5 Format
If I'd have to make a guess - especially if paper curls only slightly, it gets difficult to get perfectly even exposure when scanning a print. Perhaps it's something like that

The v700 keeps the print perfectly flat, especially with the RC paper. It has an attachment for scanning documents/photos designed to keep them flat. I find the whole discussion and observations very interesting.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
7,205
Location
San Clemente, California
Shooter
Multi Format
I have looked at this on my 2015 MacBook Pro, my 2021 MacBook Pro for work, my iPhone, and my LG desktop monitor attached to the work MacBook Pro and they all look slightly different colors. Just goes to show that digital images are totally dependent on color calibration to display "true" images.

Yup. And viewing actual prints in different ambient lighting conditions results in just as much variation. Even darkroom output exhibits metamerism; it's not just inkjet. That's why I only evaluate my prints when the sun is shining and diffused by some white blinds/shutters. It's the standard I use for our relatively modern, "open plan" home with lots of windows. Those who live in environments where different illumination conditions predominate are advised to observe their prints under those instead.
 

GregY

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
894
Location
Alberta
Shooter
Large Format
Chuck, it's a lovely image. I wouldn't stress over it. Evaluating a screen version of a picture of a picture is such an approximation...
 
OP
OP
Chuck_P

Chuck_P

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,982
Location
West KY
Shooter
4x5 Format
Chuck, it's a lovely image. I wouldn't stress over it. Evaluating a screen version of a picture of a picture is such an approximation...

Thank you. I agree. Definitely not stressing over it as I've gotten many good comments and observations.....someone else made these other technical observations regarding colors due to scanning....of which I find others follow-up comments interesting.
 

pentaxuser

Subscriber
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,886
Location
Daventry, No
Shooter
35mm
Yes.
I thought it was my monitor.
The top looks untoned, and the bottom looks greenish.
And I don't get used to it. They always look normal/greenish.
Do you have a Dell monitor?

Mark

Mine says BENQ on the monitor

pentaxuser
 

JPD

Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
1,668
Location
Sweden
Shooter
Medium Format
FWIW, I'm not a fan of the pink - purple of the selenium toner. I'd cut dilution and/or time to simply remove the green tint.
But you are a fan of Pink Floyd? 🙂

What do you think of brown/sepia tones on portraits?
 

JPD

Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
1,668
Location
Sweden
Shooter
Medium Format
There's some weird stuff going on if you sample specific points across the image. I did this because I thought I saw something odd, and sure enough it's there if you measure it out.

Measuring on the toned print, using the a and b coordinates of Lab:
The grass on the right side just above the shoe m have slight positive a & b values (e.g. 1.1, 2.3). So they tend towards red and yellow.
The grass at the same height on the left side of the image measures near-zero or slightly negative on a, and also a little less positive (but still above 0) on b (e.g. -0.2, 0.7). So this area is slightly yellow to slightly lime. The lit cheek measures roughly the same (-0.2, 1.3).
Interestingly the sunlit patches on the sweater tend slightly towards red (0.5,1.5).

I can't tell if this is uneven toning or a problem with the scanner & post processing. The difference is subtle, of course, but it was clear enough for me to spot - I did the measurements above only to verify my hunch.

It could have something to do with how much of the silver was converted to silver selenide in those lighter and darker spots. Also, a tiny amount of light from the scanner lights is reflected back from the scanner's glass plate.
 

JPD

Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
1,668
Location
Sweden
Shooter
Medium Format
Yeah, but that's just a longer way of saying "uneven toning" :wink:
True, but that makes it sound like a flaw compared to "I prefer not to tone to completion", which sounds more "pro". 😉
 

Anon Ymous

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
3,122
Location
Greece
Shooter
35mm
But you are a fan of Pink Floyd? 🙂

What do you think of brown/sepia tones on portraits?

Heh, good one...

I actually like brown/sepia and not just for portraits. Split sepia - selenium toning can also give some very nice results if done carefully. But it also depends on the paper. Not all papers respond the same and some won't turn purple in selenium toner. IMHO, warmtone papers are much more interesting in selenium than neutral ones. A chocolate brown tone is nice.
 
OP
OP
Chuck_P

Chuck_P

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,982
Location
West KY
Shooter
4x5 Format
IMHO, warmtone papers are much more interesting in selenium than neutral ones. A chocolate brown tone is nice.

Seems I have heard others say something like this and I'm thinking of getting some warmtone paper to try it...............could you expand on why you think it is more interesting?
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom