"scientific" vs "geometric" shutter speed designations

[Sirius Glass]

Also many cameras have their 0 small like 25o or 1ooo to mean that the o is only a decimal place and has no significant value.

Most likely the smaller size is to fit the numbers in. You are projecting your personal belief to justify a point of view. Lets just stick to the facts. Do you have something to justify your statement?

 

[Chan Tran]

Most likely the smaller size is to fit the numbers in. You are projecting your personal belief to justify a point of view. Lets just stick to the facts. Do you have something to justify your statement?

I know for sure the smaller size is not to fit the number in. On the Nikon LCD it can display the large 0 without problem but it display the smaller o.

 

[AgX]

But that does not exclude other reason, as in clinging to a used typography.

 

[BradS]

......However, the 'old' one is 'wrong' in that it ends up with 1/400 when it 'should' end up with 1/250 (or, precisely, 1/256). ..... - David Lyga

It is only 'wrong' from a modern day perspective (light meter, ev, etc..).
Consider for a moment the use of ASA 400 film and sunny -16 and suddenly that 1/400 second shutter time seems pretty 'correct'.

 

[BradS]

and what about the Leica iiif ?
black dial: 1000, 500, 200, 100, 60, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10, 4, 2, 1, B, T
red dial: 1000, 500, 200, 100, 75, 50, 25, 15, 10, 5, 2, 1, B, T

 

[David Lyga]

and what about the Leica iiif ?
black dial: 1000, 500, 200, 100, 60, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10, 4, 2, 1, B, T
red dial: 1000, 500, 200, 100, 75, 50, 25, 15, 10, 5, 2, 1, B, T

When I say 'wrong' I mean that it is wrong from the perspective of being able to interchange EVs, NOT due to rounding errors. Each change in shutter timing should be either an approximation of doubling or halving the preceding.

For example, with the RED DIAL, the continuum is almost correct, in that it starts with 1, then 2, the 5 (good enough for 4), then 10 (good enough for 8), then 15 (virtually perfect), then 25 (good enough for 30), then 50 (good enough for 60) then ... 75 which is out of line but might be the flash sync?. then 100 (good enough for 125), then 200 (good enough for 250), then 500 and 1000. So, other than the 75, the scale here is fine.

The BLACK DIAL, is also 'correct' in that the doubling is roughly maintained except for the 20 and the 40. However, these two could easily be overlooked if you wanted to add the remaining shutter EVs to the aperture EVs in order to obtain the correct COMBINED EV for a particular film / scene combination.

Whenever I shoot manually, I have a camera which I have superimposed dials with the various EVs taking the place of shutter timings and aperture values. For example, with a shutter dial of 1 sec - 1/1000 sec, instead, I have each number from 0 to 10 written in place of the shutter timings. Then for the aperture ring, instead of f2 - f22, I have superimposed EV numbers 2 to 9. Doing this allows great facility with changing shutter and aperture values. If the film / scene combo requires a '11' EV, the various choices are immediately ascertainable. All these choices have to do is add up to 11.

In addition, I rate film 'speeds' with EVs, not in the traditional way. For example, T MAX 100 is a '15' film, in that under direct sunlight at mid-day it requires a combined EV of 15. This value is then reduced, by fours, according to the lessening of light, for example:

sun 15
open shade 11
deep overcast 7
dusk 3
dim -1

and, for tungsten or artificial light, indoors:

high 11
medium 7
low 3
dim -1

These values must be modified with the type of film used. With traditional B&W, the artificial light values must be given more exposure, because this type of film is not as sensitive to such light. This can be up to two steps more exposure. However, with color film (or C-41 B&W) I find my stated values do not have to be modified.

It does take a while to understand just what IS 'open shade', 'deep overcast' 'medium tungsten', 'dim', etc, because even within these lighting situations there is great variation. But for exposing without a meter (I am not making a case to do so, but it is NICE to be ABLE to do so, just like it is NICE to learn a foreign language), this way is really the best.

This is how I prefer to think, with all extraneous, confusing data omitted. Not every one will agree, but it works well for me because, here, the film speed data translates directly into the actual shutter/aperture settings. - David Lyga.

 

[BrianShaw]

When I say 'wrong' I mean that it is wrong from the perspective of being able to interchange EVs, NOT due to rounding errors. Each change in shutter timing should be either an approximation of doubling or halving the preceding.

It’s only wrong by casting judgement on older technology using newer technology/techniques as the baseline and standard.

To really use EV one must use a camera that supports it. I enjoy using EV on Hasselblad, Rolleicord Vb, and Retina III but not on shutters that pre-date the EV concept.

 

[Chan Tran]

When I say 'wrong' I mean that it is wrong from the perspective of being able to interchange EVs, NOT due to rounding errors. Each change in shutter timing should be either an approximation of doubling or halving the preceding.

For example, with the RED DIAL, the continuum is almost correct, in that it starts with 1, then 2, the 5 (good enough for 4), then 10 (good enough for 8), then 15 (virtually perfect), then 25 (good enough for 30), then 50 (good enough for 60) then ... 75 which is out of line but might be the flash sync?. then 100 (good enough for 125), then 200 (good enough for 250), then 500 and 1000. So, other than the 75, the scale here is fine.

The BLACK DIAL, is also 'correct' in that the doubling is roughly maintained except for the 20 and the 40. However, these two could easily be overlooked if you wanted to add the remaining shutter EVs to the aperture EVs in order to obtain the correct COMBINED EV for a particular film / scene combination.

Whenever I shoot manually, I have a camera which I have superimposed dials with the various EVs taking the place of shutter timings and aperture values. For example, with a shutter dial of 1 sec - 1/1000 sec, instead, I have each number from 0 to 10 written in place of the shutter timings. Then for the aperture ring, instead of f2 - f22, I have superimposed EV numbers 2 to 9. Doing this allows great facility with changing shutter and aperture values. If the film / scene combo requires a '11' EV, the various choices are immediately ascertainable. All these choices have to do is add up to 11.

In addition, I rate film 'speeds' with EVs, not in the traditional way. For example, T MAX 100 is a '15' film, in that under direct sunlight at mid-day it requires a combined EV of 15. This value is then reduced, by fours, according to the lessening of light, for example:

sun 15
open shade 11
deep overcast 7
dusk 3
dim -1

and, for tungsten or artificial light, indoors:

high 11
medium 7
low 3
dim -1

These values must be modified with the type of film used. With traditional B&W, the artificial light values must be given more exposure, because this type of film is not as sensitive to such light. This can be up to two steps more exposure. However, with color film (or C-41 B&W) I find my stated values do not have to be modified.

It does take a while to understand just what IS 'open shade', 'deep overcast' 'medium tungsten', 'dim', etc, because even within these lighting situations there is great variation. But for exposing without a meter (I am not making a case to do so, but it is NICE to be ABLE to do so, just like it is NICE to learn a foreign language), this way is really the best.

This is how I prefer to think, with all extraneous, confusing data omitted. Not every one will agree, but it works well for me because, here, the film speed data translates directly into the actual shutter/aperture settings. - David Lyga.

Use newer cameras David. And they have shutter speeds of 100,125,160,200,250,320,400,500 etc.. It would be easy to convert.

 

[Vaughn]

This is the graphic I first learn to photograph with -- on the back of my Rolleiflex at the time (second half of the 70s).

 

[David Lyga]

It’s only wrong by casting judgement on older technology using newer technology/techniques as the baseline and standard.

To really use EV one must use a camera that supports it. I enjoy using EV on Hasselblad, Rolleicord Vb, and Retina III but not on shutters that pre-date the EV concept.

I MAKE the older cameras support it. And, as far as the old scales go, I test each shutter speed to see which EV it is CLOSEST to. I then enumerate the EV timing on a label which I stick on that shutter wheel. - David Lyga