Schneider Kreuznach Symmar S 240mm f/5.6,420mm f/12,

[Craig S.....]

I have just purchased a
Schneider Kreuznach Symmar S 240mm f/5.6,420mm f/12, it has some issues I need to strip it down and clean the glass elements, no big problem, now for my question. There are two sizes printed on the lens. Does this mean it is a 240mm for 8 * 10 inch use and 420 mm for 4 *5 inch use ?

 

[Dan Fromm]

AT f/22 the complete lens should cover 8x10. The rear cell alone should also cover 8x10.

 

[MARTIE]

My understanding is that the Symmar was listed as convertible, and the original shutter should indicate both aperture scales for the 240mm (front +rear cells) and 420mm (rear cell only). Both should cover 8x10.

The Symmar-s, to my knowledge, was not marketed as convertible, and as such, the shutter had a single aperture scale. This lens is newer, multi-coated, not single coated and also covers 8x10.

 

[Craig S.....]

My understanding is that the Symmar was listed as convertible, and the original shutter should indicate both aperture scales for the 240mm (front +rear cells) and 420mm (rear cell only). Both should cover 8x10.

The Symmar-s, to my knowledge, was not marketed as convertible, and as such, the shutter had a single aperture scale. This lens is newer, multi-coated, not single coated and also covers 8x10.

I have only just purchased the lens and still waiting for it to arrive. looking at the images from the seller it has on the face of the lens ring writing Scheider Kreuznac Symmar/ 5.6 /240 white between the Kreuznach and Symmar is the word sinar in green and opposite that also in green is 12/420. Looking at the apeerture settings there is two rows one in green with 16, 22 32 , 45 and the other ring in white is 8, 11, 16 , 22, 32, 45. My planned use of the lens is on a about 1910 Century field camera. I have given it a clean and have just made a new set of bellows for it . I will be using the camera and lens for landscpe images.

 

[MARTIE]

Yes, that is what I would expect of the lens. There will be an extra green f12 and white f5.6 but I presume they aren't visible in the photos.
I think it will make a nice combination with the camera and subject matter. Perhaps not as 'clinical' as more modern variants, but that can be nice too.

 

[koraks]

Scheider Kreuznac Symmar/ 5.6 /240 white between the Kreuznach and Symmar is the word sinar in green and opposite that also in green is 12/420.

Okay, that sounds like a Schneider Kreuznach Symmar, not a Symmar-S. The Symmar-S is a later lens. I have and regularly use a Symmar-S 240/5.6 and while it can indeed be used with e.g. just the front group, I don't think it's officially intended that way and the aperture scale is also not marked for it. I have 'in a pinch' used my Symmar-S without the rear group on occasion to get 8x10" coverage.

Does this mean it is a 240mm for 8 * 10 inch use and 420 mm for 4 *5 inch use ?

Not sure how familiar you are with these convertible lenses. The way they work is that you normally use the lens with both the front and rear group installed; i.e. the part at the front of the lens board as well as the part at the back of it that sticks into the camera. In that case it's a 240mm/5.6 lens in your case. If you remove the rear part, the remaining front group is a longer focal length, 420mm in this case, and since the front element and aperture don't change in physical size, the numerical aperture (as defined as the focal length divided by physical aperture) changes, so in this case it becomes an f/12 lens.

The focal length is regardless of what size film you put behind it. What does change, is coverage due to the longer vs. shorter focal length and thus longer vs. shorter distance between the lens and the film plane. As a 240mm lens, it will cover 5x7" (IIRC) at infinity focus. As a 420mm lens, the lens is placed at a larger distance from the film plane to get the same focus, and thus, the projected image is larger, and the lens will cover 8x10" (although if memory serves, only just).

 

[BrianShaw]

https://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/linhof_schneider_symmar.pdf

Technical data and how to use, from the manufacturer…

 

[Craig S.....]

Yes, that is what I would expect of the lens. There will be an extra green f12 and white f5.6 but I presume they aren't visible in the photos.
I think it will make a nice combination with the camera and subject matter. Perhaps not as 'clinical' as more modern variants, but that can be nice too.

Given the weight of camera and I will be using it for Landscapes so carrying it around should not be an issue, the camera is certainly lighter than my Calumet C1 , I think this will work out fine for me, I may have a bit of a play around with the longer side of the lens but my passion is landscapes especially down here in Tasmania.

 

[Besk]

To be clear, per instructions, the rear group only has a 420mm /F12 focal length.
Both as a 240mm lens or 420mm lens will cover 8x10.

 

[Craig S.....]

Okay, that sounds like a Schneider Kreuznach Symmar, not a Symmar-S. The Symmar-S is a later lens. I have and regularly use a Symmar-S 240/5.6 and while it can indeed be used with e.g. just the front group, I don't think it's officially intended that way and the aperture scale is also not marked for it. I have 'in a pinch' used my Symmar-S without the rear group on occasion to get 8x10" coverage.


Not sure how familiar you are with these convertible lenses. The way they work is that you normally use the lens with both the front and rear group installed; i.e. the part at the front of the lens board as well as the part at the back of it that sticks into the camera. In that case it's a 240mm/5.6 lens in your case. If you remove the rear part, the remaining front group is a longer focal length, 420mm in this case, and since the front element and aperture don't change in physical size, the numerical aperture (as defined as the focal length divided by physical aperture) changes, so in this case it becomes an f/12 lens.

The focal length is regardless of what size film you put behind it. What does change, is coverage due to the longer vs. shorter focal length and thus longer vs. shorter distance between the lens and the film plane. As a 240mm lens, it will cover 5x7" (IIRC) at infinity focus. As a 420mm lens, the lens is placed at a larger distance from the film plane to get the same focus, and thus, the projected image is larger, and the lens will cover 8x10" (although if memory serves, only just).

Thanks for the information, I read through it 3 times to take it in, what you have posted, it has been helpful to me.

 

[John Wiegerink]

These Schneider convertible lenses are looked down upon by some folks because they are not the best when used as single groups. You will sometimes get focus shift when you stop the lens down using just one of the lens groups. That means it's best to focus, check the ground glass for composition and sharpness, then stop down and refocus again. When these lenses are used as a whole unit (front and back groups in the shutter together) they are really good lenses. That means you get a pretty good bang for your buck. I have the 240mm/420mm convertible also and it works a peach on my 8X10 camera. Are there better lenses for 8X10? Yes, but not at this price point and quality. If your sample is in top shape I'm sure you'll enjoy using it.

 

[Craig S.....]

These Schneider convertible lenses are looked down upon by some folks because they are not the best when used as single groups. You will sometimes get focus shift when you stop the lens down using just one of the lens groups. That means it's best to focus, check the ground glass for composition and sharpness, then stop down and refocus again. When these lenses are used as a whole unit (front and back groups in the shutter together) they are really good lenses. That means you get a pretty good bang for your buck. I have the 240mm/420mm convertible also and it works a peach on my 8X10 camera. Are there better lenses for 8X10? Yes, but not at this price point and quality. If your sample is in top shape I'm sure you'll enjoy using it.

John, thanks for the feedback. The Schneider Kreuzach Symmar is not my first lens. I have 3 others. A Schneider Kreuzach 5.6/360. I think this is what they refer to as a barrel lens as it has an aperture but no shutter. I need to strip it down and clean the glass elements in it and make a lens board for it.. A Rodenstock 09/360 on a copal 3 shutter which lives on my Calumet C1 8*10 studio camera. I had to get a tripod that takes 15 Kilos to mount it on. I also have a Bessler 18 inch lens out of a projector. If I ever get the time to get around to it, I will make a mount for it possibly for the Calumet C1. This lens is a huge chunk of glass, with a diameter of 95mm. I like the challenge that these lenses give as this is the enjoyment I get from photography. I also have Mamiya medium format camears and lenses and therer are some people in the groups I interact with who also look down on some gear in a similar fashion. Its a shame really as they are missing the whole point, Photography is suppose to be fun.

 

[John Wiegerink]

John, thanks for the feedback. The Schneider Kreuzach Symmar is not my first lens. I have 3 others. A Schneider Kreuzach 5.6/360. I think this is what they refer to as a barrel lens as it has an aperture but no shutter. I need to strip it down and clean the glass elements in it and make a lens board for it.. A Rodenstock 09/360 on a copal 3 shutter which lives on my Calumet C1 8*10 studio camera. I had to get a tripod that takes 15 Kilos to mount it on. I also have a Bessler 18 inch lens out of a projector. If I ever get the time to get around to it, I will make a mount for it possibly for the Calumet C1. This lens is a huge chunk of glass, with a diameter of 95mm. I like the challenge that these lenses give as this is the enjoyment I get from photography. I also have Mamiya medium format camears and lenses and therer are some people in the groups I interact with who also look down on some gear in a similar fashion. Its a shame really as they are missing the whole point, Photography is suppose to be fun.

That's the whole point of photography for me now........to enjoy! Many times people look down on something or condemn something based on hearsay and have never tried what they are condemning. If you like or enjoy something you shouldn't let anyone tell you you shouldn't enjoy it.

 

[Nokton48]

Old Man's Cave Falls by Nokton48, on Flickr

Old Man's Cave Falls 8x10 Sinar Norma 240mm Norma Symmar, 8x10 HP5 (not +) D76 1:1 fibre 8x10 print Fortezo Dektol. Sinar Norma Shutter.

 

[Dan Fromm]

J I have 3 others. A Schneider Kreuzach 5.6/360. I think this is what they refer to as a barrel lens as it has an aperture but no shutter. I need to strip it down and clean the glass elements in it and make a lens board for it.. <snip> I also have a Bessler 18 inch lens out of a projector. If I ever get the time to get around to it, I will make a mount for it possibly for the Calumet C1. This lens is a huge chunk of glass, with a diameter of 95mm.

Hmm. These two lenses aren't in shutter. The C1 doesn't have a focal plane shutter. How do you plan to time exposures with them?

 

[ntenny]

Hmm. These two lenses aren't in shutter. The C1 doesn't have a focal plane shutter. How do you plan to time exposures with them?

Just some ideas:

Homemade guillotine-style shutter
Galli shutter (two darkslides with a gap)
Lensboard with a mounted Packard shutter
Hat

I’ve used all of them successfully except the Galli shutter (never tried). None of them are precision instruments, obviously, but for a sufficiently long exposure they don’t need to be.

-NT

 

[Craig S.....]

Just some ideas:

Homemade guillotine-style shutter
Galli shutter (two darkslides with a gap)
Lensboard with a mounted Packard shutter
Hat

I’ve used all of them successfully except the Galli shutter (never tried). None of them are precision instruments, obviously, but for a sufficiently long exposure they don’t need to be.

-NT

I was considering making a guillotine style shutter, I am a Mechanical Fitter by trade, I will need to procure a shutter speed tester from Ebay first. Film is too expensive for option 2 and that is remove the lens cover and time it, then replace the lens cover.

 

[Craig S.....]

To be clear, per instructions, the rear group only has a 420mm /F12 focal length.
Both as a 240mm lens or 420mm lens will cover 8x10.

After all this time waiting for the lens to arrive, the original package was damaged so it was reboxed and sent to me, only to be shipped back to the carrier and then shipped to me. Prior to arrival I received an email saying the lens had been damage in transport. When it finally arrived today the rear element had been badly damaged and the Shutter refused to work as it is stuck in a half open position. I am now awaiting for a refund. This really sucks. I hope this part of the process is somewhat quicker so I can track down another lens. I have just made and fitted a new bellows. It seems like I will never get to test it out.

 

[koraks]

Ah, that really sucks; sorry to hear that...

 

[Craig S.....]

Ah, that really sucks; sorry to hear that...

Aready ordered another lens a

GOERZ DAGOR 16.5 cm /6.5", F6.8 lens, lets hope this one survives the trip from Japan, My interaction from the seller has been excellent and they are oranising a refund. I hope.​

 

[Craig S.....]

After all this time waiting for the lens to arrive, the original package was damaged so it was reboxed and sent to me, only to be shipped back to the carrier and then shipped to me. Prior to arrival I received an email saying the lens had been damage in transport. When it finally arrived today the rear element had been badly damaged and the Shutter refused to work as it is stuck in a half open position. I am now awaiting for a refund. This really sucks. I hope this part of the process is somewhat quicker so I can track down another lens. I have just made and fitted a new bellows. It seems like I will never get to test it out.

Just a bit of an update, I got my money back and I have had a closer look at the lens. I filed the damage part away and the lens element looks ok. Now for the bit that is not so easy, the non functioning shutter. It needs to be stripped down and the whole mechinsim cleaned and the excapement removed and lubricated. I looked on youtube and I can do this but time is against me at the moment.