Scanning black and white film

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Ces1um

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I'm curious as to the benefit of scanning a black and white negative in 24 bit colour vs 16 bit greyscale. A black and white film negative is a black and white image which due to stippling/density variations appears greyscale. Since our computer monitors only display 256 shades of grey and apparently the human eye can only discern about 80 (experts argue this point but the highest value I've seen is 400 ) why not scan in 16 bit greyscale which in theory should produce about 65 thousand shades. It would produce smaller file sizes with , in theory, no loss of quality over the 24 bit scan. Can someone more knowledgeable enlighten me? I'm genuinely curious. I'm wondering what possible benefit there is to a 24 bit colour scan if we can only discern 80 shades and our computers can only display 256 shades of grey.
 

jeffreyg

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I can't really answer your question. It is my understanding that it is best to start with the maximum amount of information and then make the adjustments and downsize your file. If you have an RGB file even though the image is monochrome you can adjust the individual curves, desaturate and tone for example. I start with a RGB scan from black and white film, make my adjustments and then see what it looks like in grayscale. If I am going to make a print I switch back to RGB and make some slight brown tone and sepia tone additions which with my printer and the paper I prefer gives me the neutral black and white tones I like. It is difficult to tell those prints from the silver gelatin prints I make in my wet darkroom other than being just a very slight bit warmer. Also some third party and plugins require a RGB file.

Maybe others more knowledgeable will give you a more technical answer.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/
 

jeffreyg

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I can't really answer your question. It is my understanding that it is best to start with the maximum amount of information and then make the adjustments and downsize your file. If you have an RGB file even though the image is monochrome you can adjust the individual curves, desaturate and tone for example. I start with a RGB scan from black and white film, make my adjustments and then see what it looks like in grayscale. If I am going to make a print I switch back to RGB and make some slight brown tone and sepia tone additions which with my printer and the paper I prefer gives me the neutral black and white tones I like. It is difficult to tell those prints from the silver gelatin prints I make in my wet darkroom other than being just a very slight bit warmer. Also some third party and plugins require a RGB file.

Maybe others more knowledgeable will give you a more technical answer.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/
 

John_M_King

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Likewise I cannot answer the question or give any suggestions as to why we should use a large bit depth - unless.........by using the larger bit depth this extends the number of tones that will be available. By this I mean, the larger depth will capture detail in more dense areas and in shadow areas where there is only limited detail available to the human eye. This will have the effect of making the image 'softer' but increasing the options for after scanning manipulation.

The downside of 16/24 bit scanning is with the higher scale, this will also serve to increase the file size.

I scan using a Nikon Coolscan 5 at the max bit depth which is only 12 but it has the option of scanning and producing the results in RAW. This does allow me to manipulate/alter the effect to a greater degree when working on the image afterwards..
 

John_M_King

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Likewise I cannot answer the question or give any suggestions as to why we should use a large bit depth - unless.........by using the larger bit depth this extends the number of tones that will be available. By this I mean, the larger depth will capture detail in more dense areas and in shadow areas where there is only limited detail available to the human eye. This will have the effect of making the image 'softer' but increasing the options for after scanning manipulation.

The downside of 16/24 bit scanning is with the higher scale, this will also serve to increase the file size.

I scan using a Nikon Coolscan 5 at the max bit depth which is only 12 but it has the option of scanning and producing the results in RAW. This does allow me to manipulate/alter the effect to a greater degree when working on the image afterwards..
 

ced

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I see no advantage scanning b&w in 24bit colour, 16bit greyscale should be more than enough to do whatever you want with the file.
 

John_M_King

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Likewise I cannot answer the question or give any suggestions as to why we should use a large bit depth - unless.........by using the larger bit depth this extends the number of tones that will be available. By this I mean, the larger depth will capture detail in more dense areas and in shadow areas where there is only limited detail available to the human eye. This will have the effect of making the image 'softer' but increasing the options for after scanning manipulation.

The downside of 16/24 bit scanning is with the higher scale, this will also serve to increase the file size.

I scan using a Nikon Coolscan 5 at the max bit depth which is only 12 but it has the option of scanning and producing the results in RAW. This does allow me to manipulate/alter the effect to a greater degree when working on the image afterwards..

My mistake the upper bit depth is 14 not 12 as I said before
 

cb1

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I read a long time ago that to get the most out of B&W negatives you scan them as color slides and in post you invert and change to gray scale.
I started to do that and all of my B&W scans come out really nice. Sharp with natural looking grain for the film type. When I started medium format my scans look even better with the large negative.
My scanner is a HP G4050. It does a great job at B&W, but color is horrible.
 

Wallendo

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There are advantages to scanning color negatives or slides in color, even if the final output is black and white as the image can be adjusted for different curves.
When scanning black and white negatives, all three channels would have the same general histogram and software would average the three together. This is not going to be sharper than just scanning one channel.
I generally scan B&W at 16 bit and then convert to 8-bit in Photoshop after other corrections are made. If your final output is screen based, 8 bit is all you need. If you plan to make large prints, leave it at 16 bits - even if you can't see the difference on the screen, there may be a difference in the print..
 

Bob Carnie

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I see no advantage scanning b&w in 24bit colour, 16bit greyscale should be more than enough to do whatever you want with the file.
I agree, 16 bit - no sharpening- gamma 2.2 is what I go for, now clipping at either end.
 

Prof_Pixel

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The only reason I can think of for scanning in RGB is to be able to modify the R or G or B channels before converting to grayscale - much like using a color filter(s) with B&W panchromatic film.


EDIT: This only applies to scanning color film that you want to convert to B&W.
 
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Bob Carnie

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The only reason I can think of for scanning in RGB is to be able to modify the R or G or B channels before converting to grayscale - much like using a color filter(s) with B&W panchromatic film.
I see no value in this.. just making your file size much larger.

I prefer to keep single channel 16 bit so when editing have a lot of headroom.. It is important to note that most printers are using a RGB platform so just before sending to printer you would convert to RGB but no need to do this before hand IMO.
 

lantau

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Actually a 16 Bit grey scale image will have more grey tones that a 24 bit colour image. 24 bit is 8 bit per colour channel. That is a low colour resolution if you want to do any editing. So a 16 Bit Tiff colour file will have 16x3=48 bits colour depth.

I use a digicam for my negatives, which has only 12bit per channel I believe. After capturing a b/w negative I crop, convert to grey and then invert. That typically gives about 30000 unique grey tones according to my software. You need those to process without creating artifacts. Once you're done with adjusting this image analog to the dark room it is perfectly fine to export it to a normal file with only 256 grey tones. As already mentioned the eye can supposedly not see more, anyway.
 
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If you want true black and white then there is no advantage to scanning in color. You will get the best quality with the smallest file size by scanning in 16 bit greyscale using the sharpest channel, which usually is the green channel.

HOWEVER, If your scanning software combines all the channels for greyscale, then you may be better off scanning 48 bit RGB and using the sharpest channel for your greyscale file deleting the other two.

Hope that answers your question.
 

alanrockwood

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For black and white I use Vuescan using the green channel for the black and white conversion.

I have mostly been scanning in 16 bit mode. However, I am pretty sure that scanning in 8 bit mode would be just as good to capture the image from the film. Film is grainy, and as long as the pixel-to-pixel noise in the image due to graininess exceeds the analog to digital step size for the acquisition there is nothing to be gained by scanning at a higher bit depth.

Some have argued that scanning in 16 bit mode will avoid posterization effects during subsequent image manipulation, especially if the image processing is extreme. I agree that for noiseless images this could be a valid point, but because film images are noisy due to film grain posterization should not be an issue, and in the worst case one could convert an 8 bit image (acquired by a scanner) to 16 bit before processing the image, then convert the final image back to 8 bit if file size is a concern.

I have done some numerical simulations to validate this idea, but I would love it if someone would do some experiments on actual images comparing two work flows. The first workflow would be to scan in 8 bit mode, convert to 16 bit mode before image manipulation, then back to 8 bit mode for storage and subsequent printing or display. the second workflow would be 16 bit scanning, 16 bit image manipulation, and 16 bit storage and subsequent printing or display. I contend that one will not see posterization when using workflow number 1. However, in an artificially generated grainless and noiseless image posterization could occur.
 

removed account4

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i always scan everything as a color chrome, my images have a tonality to them because of the coffee or emulsion
that i don't want to have to attempt to replicate through color / hue manipulation. i got in the habit of saving everything
and scanning everything as a color image when the printing service i was using specifically wanted everything to be color... and i never changed.
there probably isn't an benefit to any of it, and it is just a habit
 

jlbruyelle

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I have mostly been scanning in 16 bit mode. However, I am pretty sure that scanning in 8 bit mode would be just as good to capture the image from the film. Film is grainy, and as long as the pixel-to-pixel noise in the image due to graininess exceeds the analog to digital step size for the acquisition there is nothing to be gained by scanning at a higher bit depth.

This has nothing to do with grain really. The answer to this argument is very simple and only requires reading the datasheet of the B&W film stock which you are scanning. For example, the T-Max can achieve a density in excess of 3.0 no matter the grain - see Kodak's F-4016 document. This corresponds to a dynamic range of 1000:1. A perfect (i.e. noise-free, which never happens) 8 bits converter can only achieve 256:1, so it does not allow to recover the full range from your negatives, with a particular problem in the high values (i.e. the "almost white" parts) of the positive image which easily get saturated. OTOH, 16 bits are able to encode a 65536:1 dynamic range, meaning a density up to 4.8. Note that actual converters do not usually provide 16 bits: ordinary flatbed scanners can provide, let's say, 10 "real" bits or a little more. That's a 3.0 density, barely sufficient to digitize the full information that lies in your negative. Hence the importance of checking the maximum density of the scanner, which must exceed that of your films, and of saving to 16-bit files.
 

jlbruyelle

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i always scan everything as a color chrome, my images have a tonality to them because of the coffee or emulsion
that i don't want to have to attempt to replicate through color / hue manipulation.

Good move, but then you can't consider these are B&W images, can you? This is a different case.
 

removed account4

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jlbruyelle, sure, why not .. not sure why it is any different than
scanning black and white negative or print toned in selenium, and gold or split toned in something,
 
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jlbruyelle

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jlbruyelle, sure, why not .. not sure why it is any different than
scanning black and white negative or print toned in selenium, and gold or split toned in something,

Well, didn't you say you want to retain the tonality of your images (which I gather are intended for projection)? In this case you certainly want to scan them in colour, no doubt about it. But then you are working on a colour slide by definition, and you need to treat it accordingly. OTOH, a tintless B&W negative has no colour that would appear in a photographic enlargement anyway, so I agree that it is B&W by definition. This is what I meant in my previous post: the second case can be considered as B&W, whereas the first case can only be considered a colour document since you want to reproduce its tint. This is why I said that these are not really what we are talking about in this thread, unless I missed something in the ces1um's question.

Whether or not it makes sense to in a mixed workflow to treat all documents as colour, as you do, is a different and interesting question. Personally I have never seen the point of digitising in colour all the archives, but there may be cases in which having all the files in the exact same format is beneficial, I don't know. I must add that I also digitise colour to 16 bits per component, for the same reason as B&W.
 
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alanrockwood

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This has nothing to do with grain really. The answer to this argument is very simple and only requires reading the datasheet of the B&W film stock which you are scanning. For example, the T-Max can achieve a density in excess of 3.0 no matter the grain - see Kodak's F-4016 document. This corresponds to a dynamic range of 1000:1. A perfect (i.e. noise-free, which never happens) 8 bits converter can only achieve 256:1, so it does not allow to recover the full range from your negatives, with a particular problem in the high values (i.e. the "almost white" parts) of the positive image which easily get saturated. OTOH, 16 bits are able to encode a 65536:1 dynamic range, meaning a density up to 4.8. Note that actual converters do not usually provide 16 bits: ordinary flatbed scanners can provide, let's say, 10 "real" bits or a little more. That's a 3.0 density, barely sufficient to digitize the full information that lies in your negative. Hence the importance of checking the maximum density of the scanner, which must exceed that of your films, and of saving to 16-bit files.

When considering these things it is important to distinguish large-area vs. pixel-scale signal variations. It is the pixel-by-pixel noise that is important for this discussion. For example, it is entirely possible to cover a high dynamic range (as measured over a large image area) with a low-bit ADC, provided that the variation in density over a small region is large.

If you scan a featureless area of a negative, such as a featureless sky, you will find that there is quite a bit of pixel-to-pixel variation in the signal. This can be caused by what is in the film itself (such as grain) or the sensor itself (for example, thermal noise in the electronics), or at extremely low light levels one can even be subjected to shot noise. If the the standard deviation of the pixel-to-pixel noise is comparable to the ADC step size then the benefit in going to a smaller ADC step size is negligible. In fact, if the pixels are small enough (then under certain conditions) a one bit ADC is sufficient to recover all of the information in the image.

All this is pretty well known among the signal processing community. I am not a member of that community, but I have been close enough to it in my professional capacity to have learned many of the core concepts.

A bit of a wild card may occur if the negative is so dense that almost no light comes through. In that case the variation in pixel-to-pixel grain in the negative itself could be less than the ADC step size, and in that case you could lose information. However, consumer-grade scanners use photodiode detectors, and I am pretty sure that there is enough electronic noise in the detectors that the noise level is greater than the ADC step size. (I am prepared to be proven wrong on this by actual experimental results.) If the noise in the detector and associated electronics is comparable to the ADC step size then there is no advantage in going to an ADC with a finer step size.

As an interesting point, drum scanners generally use photomultiplier tubes (PMT) for detection. The noise level in most PMTs is EXTREMELY low. For example, a Hammamatsu H11870-01 has a typical dark count rate of 15 photons/second. This is probably a lot lower than the dark count rate of PMT used in most drum scanners, but the point is that the dark count rate is extremely low in those detectors, and in such cases one needs to take the analysis to another level.

I intend to follow this post up with a post containing some sample calculations, but it could get into some math that might be distracting in this post, so I won't include here.
 

Prof_Pixel

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... and making B&W film more difficult to scan than color film is the scatter caused by the Ag grains that isn't an issue with color film dye clouds.
 

alanrockwood

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jlbruyelle, You raise a good point about what happens at maximum film density, and my initial post focused on film grain as a source of noise. However, in the really dense parts of the fil the noise of the detector (such as thermal noise) will begin to become important, and if this is comparable to or exceeds the step size of the ADC then having an ADC with a finer step size (i.e. more bits in the ADC) will not help.

Anyway, I would love to see some experimental results.
 
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