Saving Kodachrome?

[holmburgers]

Yeah, I think the best thing we can do is shoot E6 and not cross process it. That's what I'm worried about... Kodachrome is gone and it's sad, but let's keep the remaining slide film around. I don't want to live in a world where it's just color negative....

If you really want to do something for the love of Kodachrome, figure out how to process it in small batches at home. There's liable to be a good amount of Kodachrome left after this year, and it's all destined for b&w.

 

[kb3lms]

For all those films that Kodak and Fuji don't want to make anymore because the market is too small for them, I would like to see them license or sell the technology to a smaller manufacturer that would be happy with those sales. Maybe the small company would even cough up for some R&D.

Just like the horse saddles - some small companies make horse saddles and are very happy with the money they make.

 

[kb3lms]

FWIW, I'd also like to see Kodak partner with somebody to sell cut RA-4 paper as well.

 

[Moopheus]

Just like the horse saddles - some small companies make horse saddles and are very happy with the money they make.

This just isn't going to happen for Kodachrome. Or even E-6. If it could, it probably already would be happening. I mean, a number of smaller companies continue to make b&w products, but basically none make color.

 

[kb3lms]

For Kodachrome, no it won't happen. Unfortunately, Kodachrome has come to a dead end because it's too complicated to take on.

Some E-6 products, maybe, if there is a company that wants to be in the business, can make some money at it, and isn't worried about becoming a mega, multi-national monolith. Hopefully, they are out there.

 

[railwayman3]

For all those films that Kodak and Fuji don't want to make anymore because the market is too small for them, I would like to see them license or sell the technology to a smaller manufacturer that would be happy with those sales. Maybe the small company would even cough up for some R&D.

Just like the horse saddles - some small companies make horse saddles and are very happy with the money they make.

The problem is that a skilled person could make just one horse saddle a year and sell it at a profit, using relatively simple tools and readily available materials. But Kodachrome, and many other products (not just photographic supplies) can only be made in a certain minimum quantity, needing both skilled workers, elaborate machinery and complicated materials. The last Kodachrome was coated some three or four years ago, so maybe none of these three requirements are easily available now, either for Kodak themselves, or a smaller manufacturer.

Having said that, I believe that Kodak could still make Kodachrome if they really wanted (they were trumpeting not long ago that they were gearing up to make film in smaller batches? And remember all the specialist scientific products which they used to make in tiny quantities?). But it appears that their interest is now in "me-too" digital and other products, and, given their parlous financial state,
I doubt that they will (or can) continue to make any product when it no longer contributes any profit. All rather sad, really.

 

[Ric Trexell]

Kodak has found something better for them, it's called digital.

All this talk about a better E-6 and resurrecting Kodachrome, while hopefull, is very doubtfull. Kodak would rather put the money they make into research for digital. No doubt they will sell their film department to a small company some day when they can no longer make a buck off it. There are many things that are affecting film besides the digital world. One big thing is the baby boomers that were buying cameras in the 80's-90's are now in their mid sixtys. The only cameras they are buying other than that old medium format that they always wanted, are a new digital for the grandkids. Now the baby busters are coming along and the market for everything is not like it was years ago. Next is the economy. With 10% of the people unemployed, that $6.00 roll of film and $10 for developing don't have the appeal they once did. Actually, film was not $6.00 years ago, and developing was more like a couple bucks. In a way it isn't fair, those that waited years for the day when they could own a nice MF or LF camera, can now get them for a tenth of the price they used to go for, but now film is harder to find. That is life. RJT.

 

[lxdude]

One big thing is the baby boomers that were buying cameras in the 80's-90's are now in their mid sixtys. .

Geez, guy, I've got a ways yet.
And I was buying cameras in the 70's.

The oldest boomers (by the standard reckoning of those born between 1946 and 1964), are just now in their mid 60's. And annoying as ever.

 

[michaelbsc]

For all those films that Kodak and Fuji don't want to make anymore because the market is too small for them, I would like to see them license or sell the technology to a smaller manufacturer that would be happy with those sales. Maybe the small company would even cough up for some R&D.

Just like the horse saddles - some small companies make horse saddles and are very happy with the money they make.

Though I cannot provide details, I seem to recall that Kodak already has tried to get others to take on Kodachrome.

The technology isn't secret or mysterious. It is just complicated and expensive.

 

[MaximusM3]

All this talk about a better E-6 and resurrecting Kodachrome, while hopefull, is very doubtfull. Kodak would rather put the money they make into research for digital. No doubt they will sell their film department to a small company some day when they can no longer make a buck off it. There are many things that are affecting film besides the digital world. One big thing is the baby boomers that were buying cameras in the 80's-90's are now in their mid sixtys. The only cameras they are buying other than that old medium format that they always wanted, are a new digital for the grandkids. Now the baby busters are coming along and the market for everything is not like it was years ago. Next is the economy. With 10% of the people unemployed, that $6.00 roll of film and $10 for developing don't have the appeal they once did. Actually, film was not $6.00 years ago, and developing was more like a couple bucks. In a way it isn't fair, those that waited years for the day when they could own a nice MF or LF camera, can now get them for a tenth of the price they used to go for, but now film is harder to find. That is life. RJT.

Right. I sincerely doubt that they can be bothered with resurrecting Kodachrome for a few hardcore guys instead of devoting resources to the latest 24MP sensor to power the Leica M10 and sell a boatload with juicy profits.
Lots of wishful thinking here but it's never going to happen. If it was going to, it would have already happened. Just my 2c.

 

[Jeff Bannow]

I think the best idea would be to shift your support to existing products, so they can continue to exist.

Shoot lots of film and the products will stop disappearing.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak uses much of the income from analog to fuel their digital work. Analog is their cash cow. If Kodachrome could be made with any profit, do you think that they would stop production? NO WAY!! Kodachrome cannot be made at any level except at a loss.

Kodak gave away the Kodachrome patent for K-14 but no one would manufacture a compatible film as they did for the previous process. There was not much profit in it even then, in the 80s! So, Kodak became the only Kodachrome manufacturer reducing the market from a total of 4 down to 1.

PE

 

[Sim2]

Kodachrome was one of those glorious anomolies that appear in a markets from time to time that happened to be very good - but there is no way that we will see it revive, unfortunately.

I have no idea why or how the process was discovered but the resulting transparencies were streets ahead of the competition (including Kodaks own E6 films) to the extent that unless the client insisted on an immediate turnaround or colour from low light situations there was no alternative to it. Whilst working at the press agencies, Kodachrome was the first choice for color - if it was too dark for pushed Kodachrome b/w was shot. The alternative E6 films were appalingly bad in comparison.

This is why at the Olympics, World Cups, Wimbledon tennis etc Kodak would either install a Kodachrome process line at the press centres or arrange courier dispatch to local process. In retrospect it amazes me the extent that Kodak (and later Fuji) went to to enable their films to be used professionally. They would even give custom colour correction factors for shooting Kodachrome in the stadium lights, enable pushing 200asa etc - awesome service for an awesome film.

That said, Kodachrome is a classic example of a vertically integrated product that "might" have declined due to lack of competition in its sector.

Kodak made the film, Kodak constructed the chemistry, Kodak ran (even under licence) the process lines. There was no way to shoot a Fuji or Agfa Kodachrome and process it in the smae lines nor to substitute Fuji or Agfa chemicals in the process line. This is closed vertical integration - which works fine when supported by the producer but falls over when they step away from the product. Unlike E6 (or C41) which is open; films, chemistry even process machinery can be mixed and matched from different suppliers - this leads to competition, on price availabilty and quality and eventually longevity of the process.

If the Kodachrome process (films, chemicals etc) had been more open (even under licence) it is possible that other ways of producing may have been discovered, possibly even more economical production or processing for smaller volumes. Not guaranteed but possible.

The time for opening up Kodachrome was back in the '80's when Fuji launched Velvia and then Provia. We moved over en masse. Why? E6 process that could be run on a small(ish) dip and dunk at the agency - run when we wanted or needed it. I know how much Kodachrome we shot per week and how much they lost from us. If there had been a small processor things might have been different as when the process was available e.g. Olympics Kodachrome was shot instead of Fuji.

If the process had been opened up back then, we might have been in a situation of having smaller more econiomicl processors available, different film manufacturers even home chemistry - big leap but so was going to the moon!

Que sera........

I loved shooting Kodachrome, missed being able to use it easily over the last ten years, mourn its passing with a regretful shrug of "well, what if...." but know that Lazarus is more likely to go on a world tour than be shooting any Kodachrome ever again - whoever tried to produce it now.

Sim2.
*loved the yellow box*

 

[sandholm]

People going to hate me now, but I think that 35 mm will soon be over. 120, 4x5 and 8x10 will live on, ULF will be produced when a order has been reached. 35 mm i think soon will be gong due to the digital world. I dont like it, but i fear so.

Kodak uses much of the income from analog to fuel their digital work. Analog is their cash cow. If Kodachrome could be made with any profit, do you think that they would stop production? NO WAY!! Kodachrome cannot be made at any level except at a loss.

Can only agree, if they could make money on it, even just a small profit they would keep it in production. Personal i think the problem were the late introduction of the 120 format, which were at the same tim Fuji released 120 in E6, which you could have developed the same day and not send it of to another country.

Kodak gave away the Kodachrome patent for K-14 but no one would manufacture a compatible film as they did for the previous process. There was not much profit in it even then, in the 80s! So, Kodak became the only Kodachrome manufacturer reducing the market from a total of 4 down to 1.

Wowe.. they couldnt even give it away for FREE i didnt even know that but it says tons. In the 80s, were film were really big (no digital) and no one wanted to produce it..

cheers

 

[Adrian Twiss]

I'd love to see Verichrome Pan in 126 again but sadly I have to be realistic...

I'd love to see verichrome pan in 5x4 inch. I have about 30 rolls in 120 sitting in the freezer. Its so easy to expose and process. Ah well the march of time

 

[bblhed]

I think the best idea would be to shift your support to existing products, so they can continue to exist.

Shoot lots of film and the products will stop disappearing.

That was the point I was trying to make. I have about 20 rolls of slide film right now, and I figure when I get down to about six rolls I will order more. With Christmas coming I plan on using a lot of film really quickly over the holidays.

Buy more film, buy new film.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sim;

Kodachrome K-12 compatible films were made by Fuji, Konica, and Dyancolor besides Kodak. They also made process kits for other labs and their films were fully compatible with the Kodak films! When K-14 came out, all 3 of these companies exited the Kodachrome market even though Kodak offered them the patent free. You see that notification of abandonment appended to the actual patent.

There was no money to be made from this market for any competitor that had to do even the minor changes in R&D to get a viable K-14 product. That was in the mid to late 80s. The handwriting was on the wall even then.

PE

 

[Q.G.]

You could get very fine E6 films then. Kodak's EPR, and certainly EPN spring to mind.
Easier to get processed in a hurry.
So even then the demand for a film like Kodachrome wasn't that great.
Failing to supply the right Kodachrome (25) in 120 format did not help.
And when Kodachrome 25 disappeared many years later, the Kodachrome era had come to a close.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodachrome 25 was the most difficult product to manufacture that Kodak ever produced IMHO.

PE

 

[holmburgers]

pray tell!

 

[Q.G.]

Also one of the best, i reckon.

Though not unequalled.

 

[hpulley]

People going to hate me now, but I think that 35 mm will soon be over. 120, 4x5 and 8x10 will live on, ULF will be produced when a order has been reached. 35 mm i think soon will be gong due to the digital world. I dont like it, but i fear so.

I don't know, the way that 120 products are being discontinued faster than 35mm I doubt it. There are just a lot more 35mm cameras around. Unless they all become paperweights that is.

Ah well, if you're right perhaps I'll finally go to MF... unless I get fed up and go back to digital but I enjoy the darkroom so much right now that I don't see that happening. Printing digital just sucks, in my opinion digital is for pixels, not prints.

I just hope, hope, hope that by buying and using current products we can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that film will survive so I too am trying not to use discontinued products aside from my beloved 126 format where I hope someone else will pick it up once the current Solaris 200 stocks are gone which means I should buy it and shoot it but then I'm using a discontinued product which doesn't help current ones... I just can't win!

 

[Sim2]

Sim;

Kodachrome K-12 compatible films were made by Fuji, Konica, and Dyancolor besides Kodak. They also made process kits for other labs and their films were fully compatible with the Kodak films! When K-14 came out, all 3 of these companies exited the Kodachrome market even though Kodak offered them the patent free. You see that notification of abandonment appended to the actual patent.

PE

Ooops, apologies to you and the Big Yellow. I did not know this.

It actually really suprises me that no other manufacturer used this "free" technology as the E6 of the time were genuinely bad in comparison. I had thought that Fuji invested in developing Velvia as a viable alternative due to not being able to replicate Kodachrome (or join the party) due to technological restrictions i.e. patents.

Thank you for clarifying this. Appreciated. Still, amazing that no-one else wanted to join Paul Simon in the chorus..... Great film, good times.

Sim2.

 

[Ektagraphic]

So you (and who are your partners in crime?) were responsible for the discontinuation of Portra 400 NC...!

By the new Portra 400 I meant the fact that it is available in 8x10 sheets. It was not originally going to be.

 

[AgX]

For all those films that Kodak and Fuji don't want to make anymore because the market is too small for them, I would like to see them license or sell the technology to a smaller manufacturer that would be happy with those sales.

It actually really suprises me that no other manufacturer used this "free" technology...

Kodachrome-likes have been manufactured by many other companies. They all ceased those products.