Sandy Kings p-Aminophenol version of Pyrocat - My initial Beta Testing Results

sanking · Mar 27, 2006

clay said:
BTW, I ran one test at 1:1:200 for an hour. Still no elevated b+f. I like it.

Clay,

I missed this earlier. What film was this? And what was the type of agitation? Tank with agitation every minute or so or rotary?

Sandy

Lukas Werth · Mar 28, 2006

I just came across this thread, and I hate to admit it, but I have no idea about these to versions of Pyrocat; I only know Pyrocat HD. Running a search, have not found information on the net. Sorry to ask this basic question, but could anybody bring me up to date?

Maybe one other question: my working solution of pyrocat always becomes a bit cloudy immediately after mixing. Is this only me who experiences it, or also other? Can it be prevented?

clay · Mar 28, 2006

TX400 35mm film in a tank. Agitated for 1 minute and then left it alone. No excessive fog. Density was a little high, though. I am going to try cutting the dilution even more to 1:1:300 and agitating maybe 5 seconds at 20 and 40 minutes.

sanking said:
Clay,

I missed this earlier. What film was this? And what was the type of agitation? Tank with agitation every minute or so or rotary?

Sandy

noseoil · Mar 28, 2006

Lukas, you didn't "miss" anything elsewhere. There is a post by Sandy a few weeks back about his experiments to raise the acutance of pyrocat for rotary processing (two different new versions). He gives information in his post about the two new flavors. Do a search and I'm sure you will find it. Might be as far back as a month now, time passes swiftly.

Are you using a version you mixed yourself, or is it a kit from Formulary? My kit from Formulary stays pretty well clear, but I use 1:1:150 as my "normal" mix for minimal agitation and only use distilled water for a working solution. Which dilution are you using and are you using tap water? tim

Ken Lee · Mar 28, 2006

I have updated the photo which I made using TMY and Pyrocat P.

Perhaps this image, made at the same time, shows off the qualities of that film/developer combination a little better.

sanking · Mar 28, 2006

Lukas Werth said:
I just came across this thread, and I hate to admit it, but I have no idea about these to versions of Pyrocat; I only know Pyrocat HD. Running a search, have not found information on the net. Sorry to ask this basic question, but could anybody bring me up to date?

Maybe one other question: my working solution of pyrocat always becomes a bit cloudy immediately after mixing. Is this only me who experiences it, or also other? Can it be prevented?

Lukas,

Go here (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for the start of the thread on Pyrocat-P. There is also information in the thread about another variant, Pyrocat-M, but so far most of the discusssion and experimentation has been done with the -P variant.

Are you mixing the stock solutions with distilled water? I have never had any problem at all with cloudiness with Stock A. Stock B may look cloudy if too much potassium carbonate is used. The amount is already at about the saturation point and an excess will not go into solution at room temperature.

Sandy

Amund · Mar 28, 2006

Sandy, am I right to think that I`ll get increased sharpness with with tray processing too?
When I have a lot of negs to develop, doing one or two in a rotary processor is tiresome, and I prefer to do 6-8 negs in a tray instead...

sanking · Mar 28, 2006

Amund said:
Sandy, am I right to think that I`ll get increased sharpness with with tray processing too?
When I have a lot of negs to develop, doing one or two in a rotary processor is tiresome, and I prefer to do 6-8 negs in a tray instead...

To this point I have only done comparison testing for apparent sharpness with rotary processing so I can not answer your question with any degree of authority. However, based simply on the nature of the composition of the two developers I would expect slighly greater acutance with Pyrocat-P even with tray development and other normal types of agitation, say in a tank with agitation every minute or so. But that is only speculation at this point. Perhaps some of the beta testers who are doing tray processing will weigh in on this.

Sandy

Lukas Werth · Mar 28, 2006

Thank you, "noseoil" and Sandy, for bringing me up to date. I mix my stock solutions from chemicals, no kit, and I use destilled water for the stock solutions, but tap water for the working solution. In these times, I am developing with 1:100, 24 °C, mostly HP5 (or cheaper equivalnets, rather) for 13 min,, 1st minute movement, then once every three minutes.
The cloudiness occurs in the -working- solution, a second or so after adding the water to the stock solutions which I pour in first. It occurs with higher dilutions also. I have never noted anything special with my tap water here, it tests neutral, but seems to be very slightly alkaloid, which is why I use, where considered nececessary, a little bit citric for the first rinse.
I never tried to use destilled water for the working solution.

sanking · Mar 28, 2006

Lukas Werth said:
The cloudiness occurs in the -working- solution, a second or so after adding the water to the stock solutions which I pour in first. It occurs with higher dilutions also. I have never noted anything special with my tap water here, it tests neutral, but seems to be very slightly alkaloid, which is why I use, where considered nececessary, a little bit citric for the first rinse.
I never tried to use destilled water for the working solution.

I mix my working solutions with tap water also, but it tends to run neutral or even slightly acidic. Developers that use either pyrogallol or pyrocatechin tend to be more subject to changes based on variations in water type and there may be something in your water causing the cloudiness. Stuff in the water can also lead to greater B+F with these type of developers. In any event, cloudiness is not someting I have ever seen in the working solution I mix with my tap water. You might test your water supply mixing a batch with distilled or clear spring water to see if you still get the cloudiness. Of course, if the cloudiness is not causing any undesirable developer artifacts you could just ignore it.

Sandy

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 28, 2006

Yesterday, I mixed a liter of Pyrocat P stock solution A in Propylene Glycol at 140F. I used a magnetic stirring hotplate and encountered no mixing difficulties. Following Sandy's suggestion, I left the KI out.

I developed a 120 roll of Fomapan 200T with the new "stock A" this morning, I used deionized water and the 1:1:100 Pyrocat dilution. When I mixed in the KCO3 "B" solution, the working developer turned a "Medium" blue. I developed Semi-Stand for 16 minutes at 71F, and the negatives (mostly Santa Monica Mountain landscapes) look great.

sanking · Mar 28, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Yesterday, I mixed a liter of Pyrocat P stock solution A in Propylene Glycol at 140F. I used a magnetic stirring hotplate and encountered no mixing difficulties. Following Sandy's suggestion, I left the KI out.

I developed a 120 roll of Fomapan 200T with the new "stock A" this morning, I used deionized water and the 1:1:100 Pyrocat dilution. When I mixed in the KCO3 "B" solution, the working developer turned a "Medium" blue. I developed Semi-Stand for 16 minutes at 71F, and the negatives (mostly Santa Monica Mountain landscapes) look great.

Tom,

That is great to hear. I assume you must like the stuff if you mixed a whole liter. Did you get good stain with your mixture?

So the color of the working solution is blue? Very interesting. I am sure looking forward to hearing what color others get when they start to mix up their own. But another mystery. But whether blue or purple/lavender I like the idea of color as an indicator that both A and B solutions were used in the working.

Also, I am very interested to know if you see any difference in either B+F or sharpness with the potssium iodide left out? I did not see any difference with FP4+, but films are really very different so I am very curious about this.

Specifically about the B+F, I am speculating that the fact that Pyrocat-P appears to develop even less B+F stain with UV reading than Pyrocat-HD (which is no slouch at all in this regad) is due to the fact that the working pH is more in equilibrium since the threshold of pH for developer activity of pyrocatechin and p-amonophenol is much closer than pyrocatechin and phenidone. For silver printers the issue of B+F would not be much of an issue, but it might be for persons using UV sensitive processes. So for this reason the quesiton of the need for a restrainer remains in the air for me at this time.

Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback from those who voluntered to test the new formula.

Sandy

lee · Mar 28, 2006

Just a quick checkin Sandy. I did 2 4x5 FP4 at 1+5+500 @ 68F for 9 mins today and the pyrocat P was indeed purple. It was about the same color of the prewash.Seemed to get darker as it sat waiting for the prewash to take place. The film looks excellent. The color seemed a bit brown purple at the end. I am a happy camper and you should be too.

lee\c

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 28, 2006

sanking said:
Tom,

That is great to hear. I assume you must like the stuff if you mixed a whole liter. Did you get good stain with your mixture?

So the color of the working solution is blue? Very interesting. I am sure looking forward to hearing what color others get when they start to mix up their own. But another mystery. But whether blue or purple/lavender I like the idea of color as an indicator that both A and B solutions were used in the working.

Also, I am very interested to know if you see any difference in either B+F or sharpness with the potssium iodide left out? I did not see any difference with FP4+, but films are really very different so I am very curious about this.

Specifically about the B+F, I am speculating that the fact that Pyrocat-P appears to develop even less B+F stain with UV reading than Pyrocat-HD (which is no slouch at all in this regad) is due to the fact that the working pH is more in equilibrium since the threshold of pH for developer activity of pyrocatechin and p-amonophenol is much closer than pyrocatechin and phenidone. For silver printers the issue of B+F would not be much of an issue, but it might be for persons using UV sensitive processes. So for this reason the quesiton of the need for a restrainer remains in the air for me at this time.

Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback from those who voluntered to test the new formula.

Sandy

Yes Sandy, the stain was very good - brown colored stain with good blue channel density. A dense highlight area measured 2.53 blue versus 2.03 visual.

B+F was .13 in both the visual channel and blue channel.

I have not put these negs under the microscope yet, but by naked eyeball, the sharpness is high.

sanking · Mar 28, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Yes Sandy, the stain was very good - brown colored stain with good blue channel density. A dense highlight area measured 2.53 blue versus 2.03 visual.

B+F was .13 in both the visual channel and blue channel.

I have not put these negs under the microscope yet, but by naked eyeball, the sharpness is high.

Tom,

Were those densitometer readings taken from the FomotanT negatives you developed for 16 minutes with stand agitation at 72F with the 1:1:100 dilution? If so, that film really builds contrast fast. I did not get nearly as much contrast from FP4+ using the same dilution and temperature at 15 minutes even with rotary processing.

Sandy

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 28, 2006

Yes! With Fomapan T200 developed 16 minutes with stand agitation at 72F with the 1:1:100 dilution. I was surprised as well.

I got considerably lower contrast than that with Efke PL 100 developed under the same conditions. I'm still at my office and my Efke data is at home. I'll post the Efke density readings tomorrow.

sanking · Mar 28, 2006

lee said:
Just a quick checkin Sandy. I did 2 4x5 FP4 at 1+5+500 @ 68F for 9 mins today and the pyrocat P was indeed purple. It was about the same color of the prewash.Seemed to get darker as it sat waiting for the prewash to take place. The film looks excellent. The color seemed a bit brown purple at the end. I am a happy camper and you should be too.

lee\c

Hi Lee,

Thanks for the report. If you decide to mix up your own stock solutions of Pyrocat-P I am very curious to learn what color you get when mixing the working solution.

Best,

Sandy

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 29, 2006

Sandy, the densitometer readings I took from my Efke 100 negatives developed for 16 minutes with stand agitation at 72F with the 1:1:100 dilution were: Visual Channel 1.47 and Blue Channel 1.65.

This Efke 100 was 35mm film developed with Pyrocat P "A" mixed in distilled water (not glycol) this "A" solution contained Potassium Iodide.

sanking · Mar 30, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Sandy, the densitometer readings I took from my Efke 100 negatives developed for 16 minutes with stand agitation at 72F with the 1:1:100 dilution were: Visual Channel 1.47 and Blue Channel 1.65.

This Efke 100 was 35mm film developed with Pyrocat P "A" mixed in distilled water (not glycol) this "A" solution contained Potassium Iodide.

Tom,

What about the B+F? Does Efke 100 iin 35mm have a thicker base than the sheet film? It is impossible for me to relate these results to my own work without knowing B+F.

Sandy

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 30, 2006

Sandy, B+F was .23 for this roll of film.

Efke KB100 (35mm) listed substrate thickness is 125 micro meters. I verified this by measurement on the subject roll of film.

Efke PL 100 sheet film's listed substrate thickness is 175 micro meters.

sanking · Mar 30, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Sandy, B+F was .23 for this roll of film.

Efke KB100 (35mm) listed substrate thickness is 125 micro meters. I verified this by measurement on the subject roll of film.

Efke PL 100 sheet film's listed substrate thickness is 175 micro meters.

Tom,

OK, that explains it. I have only tested Efke Pl 100 with sheet film and the B+F with Pyrocat-HD was about 0.09. I am assuming that fresh Efke Pl100 would test about the same with Pyrocat-P.

Sandy

Silverpixels5 · Mar 31, 2006

sanking said:
Hi Lee,

Thanks for the report. If you decide to mix up your own stock solutions of Pyrocat-P I am very curious to learn what color you get when mixing the working solution.

Best,

Sandy

I mixed up the Pyrocat-P(in glycol) for use with FP4+. Solution color went from light lavender to deep purple with time. Also, the FB+F ranged from 0.07 to 0.09 in the visual channel, depending on how long dev time was. This was with fresh FP4+ sheet film(4x5). Any similar results, or are my numbers out of wack? I should also mention that I was out of metabisulfite so I had to sub bisulfite. I will be making a batch with the metabisulfite next week when it arrives

sanking · Mar 31, 2006

Silverpixels5 said:
I mixed up the Pyrocat-P(in glycol) for use with FP4+. Solution color went from light lavender to deep purple with time. Also, the FB+F ranged from 0.07 to 0.09 in the visual channel, depending on how long dev time was. This was with fresh FP4+ sheet film(4x5). Any similar results, or are my numbers out of wack? I should also mention that I was out of metabisulfite so I had to sub bisulfite. I will be making a batch with the metabisulfite next week when it arrives

The B+F numbers are quite similar to what I get in Visual mode with FP4+. But just curious, did you use the restrainer or leave it out? I am getting the same very low B+F without the restrainer and am probably going to recommend just leaving it out unless I find some advantage to it with traditional films.

There should be very little difference between the use of sodium metabisulfite and sodium bisulfite. In fact, most sodium bisulfite sold for photographic purposes is probably mostly metabisulfite anyway.

Sandy

Bruce Osgood · Apr 1, 2006

p-Aminophenol

Is the p-Aminophenol used in Pyrocat-P known as Para-Aminophenol Hydrochloride or Para-Aminophenol Sulfate (Metol)?

sanking · Apr 1, 2006

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
Is the p-Aminophenol used in Pyrocat-P known as Para-Aminophenol Hydrochloride or Para-Aminophenol Sulfate (Metol)?

This reducing agent is usually mentioned and sold by name as either "p-aminophenol" or "p-aminophenol hydrochloride." For the Pyrocat-P formula I specified "p-aminophenol." You can purchase it from Photographers Formulary at about $10 per 100 grams. Formulary also sells p-aminophenol hydrochloride.

P-aminophenol goes into solution very easily in both water or glycol. Whether you mix in water or glycol be sure to add and dissolve the sulfite or metabisulfite to the solution before adding the p-aminophenol.

Sandy

Sandy Kings p-Aminophenol version of Pyrocat - My initial Beta Testing Results

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