Sacramento State offers a BFA in Photography

[warden]

Engineers don't need to know anything about business; businesses hire them as fulltime employees and pay them well.

That's hilarious! The things you learn on Photrio...

 

[Mike Lopez]

That's hilarious! The things you learn on Photrio...

Seriously! What an utterly absurd and uninformed statement.

 

[Vaughn]

There are many paths to follow as an artist. Having a day job that supported my art, both financially and by providing inspiration to my life and art, with the added bonus of my retirement and SS providing the support needed later, has been a good path for me. Sales do provide a cash flow to buy new supplies. Sales and workshops do not pay the property taxes and utility bills, but that has never been my goal as an artist/educator, nor a measure of success. Success is any movement forward....

 

[VinceInMT]

You are an extreme exception. Surely you aren't so blind to not realize that.

Of course, which is why in my comment you responded to I’d said:

”While not the traditional student, I was not the only one in my category.”

 

[MarkS]

The photography business is constantly changing... does the university in question have any faculty members who understands how it works?
ASMP is a good organization to learn some of it, especially copyright issues.
Of course the path for those with academic degrees in photography (usually an MFA since the '70s) is to go into teaching undergraduates. But there are many more newly-minted MFAs every year than open teaching positions...

 

[VinceInMT]

Not to beat the almost dead horse, regarding employment after obtaining a BFA, at the university I attended, about half of my fellow art students were doing the Art Education option and went from graduation to a jobs in K-12 classrooms. So, instead of starving artists they are starving teachers. ;-)

 

[Sirius Glass]

The photography business is constantly changing... does the university in question have any faculty members who understands how it works?
ASMP is a good organization to learn some of it, especially copyright issues.
Of course the path for those with academic degrees in photography (usually an MFA since the '70s) is to go into teaching undergraduates. But there are many more newly-minted MFAs every year than open teaching positions...

The physics and science of photography do not change, the taste in art changes, but the faculty does not teach business. That is another school in the university. Students choose whether or not they will take business classes and if so how many.

 

[CMoore]

How about courses on basic marketing and setting up a website? Luck, they'll have to get elsewhere.

If they're going to never make a living out of it, should we be encouraging youngsters to go into debt for $100,000. Tell them to go get a job as an apprentice for a wedding photographer.

I am really surprised at the push-back you are getting on this.
Your idea is, simply, to help photography students make a success of their photo career.

Poole, for some reason, are totally getting hung-up on what degree a person is pursuing, and even adding a 'business degree' to that.
Why does it need to be a degree at all.?

What would be wrong with inviting professional photographers to come and give talks on 'the basics' of running a photo business. They could discuss what has been important to their success, what mistakes they made................you know, things they wish they would not have done, and some things they would do different if starting out now..........like these students will be.

The idea is to help people, not obsess on the technicalities of such and such a degree.
The spirit of all this was not to debate the 'correct' paradigm of higher education.

 

[MattKing]

I am really surprised at the push-back you are getting on this.
Your idea is, simply, to help photography students make a success of their photo career.

Poole, for some reason, are totally getting hung-up on what degree a person is pursuing, and even adding a 'business degree' to that.
Why does it need to be a degree at all.?

What would be wrong with inviting professional photographers to come and give talks on 'the basics' of running a photo business. They could discuss what has been important to their success, what mistakes they made................you know, things they wish they would not have done, and some things they would do different if starting out now..........like these students will be.

The idea is to help people, not obsess on the technicalities of such and such a degree.
The spirit of all this was not to debate the 'correct' paradigm of higher education.

All of which sounds like an appropriate topic for a thread of its own on training for the vocation of photography.
Go for it - just avoid the political talk about issues like student debt/loans and taxpayer funded vs. for profit educational institutions - those discussions are against the rules on Photrio.
In the context of that thread, I'd suggest that if you are going to set up your own program, organizing it under the auspices of a Fine Arts faculty would be problematic - an Applied Arts faculty would be more useful and appropriate for vocational training.
On that subject, a review of the Sacramento Arts program that is the subject of this thread reveals that the program is focused on the Fine Arts, not on the sort of vocational training that a working commercial or professional photographer requires.
Thus the push-back in this thread - people are complaining when Alan and others complain that what was intended to be one thing, isn't another thing.

 

[Don_ih]

Matt, the students in a FIne Arts program are not really aware of any difference between what they are doing and vocational training, since they have to do so much actual production of work to graduate. So, the distinction you keep trying to make doesn't really make a lot of sense.
@VinceInMT, for example, wasn't just sitting in a room looking at slideshows of paintings and reading up on art history. He was engaged in practice and, essentially, artistic training - I doubt he would have gone if he had not.
The end of many Fine Arts programs often involves a gallery show of student work - I think most programs have them yearly.
In other words, students are not ever led to believe that they are not actually being trained to be working artists. So what would be the problem with introducing practical business concerns, to a relevant extent?

 

[MattKing]

Matt, the students in a FIne Arts program are not really aware of any difference between what they are doing and vocational training, since they have to do so much actual production of work to graduate. So, the distinction you keep trying to make doesn't really make a lot of sense.
@VinceInMT, for example, wasn't just sitting in a room looking at slideshows of paintings and reading up on art history. He was engaged in practice and, essentially, artistic training - I doubt he would have gone if he had not.
The end of many Fine Arts programs often involves a gallery show of student work - I think most programs have them yearly.
In other words, students are not ever led to believe that they are not actually being trained to be working artists. So what would be the problem with introducing practical business concerns, to a relevant extent?

Don, I have no problem with adding some practical, "how to survive and prosper as a working artist" material to a Fine Arts focused curriculum - if it makes sense in the context of that particular faculty, and the resources available to it. Otherwise, it would probably make sense to refer students to other resources, and potentially work out arrangements for their obtaining degree credit for making use of those other resources.
But that is very different than training to be a successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business, whether large or small. This BFA program doesn't appear in any way to be suited to that.

 

[faberryman]

I looked at the curricula of several BFA programs, and in each case, in addition to the 90 or so hours of art related requirements, students had at least 30 hours of electives where they could choose to take whatever classes they wanted, including business classes if their college or university offered them. If they elect to take English literature or Philosophy or Mathematics or Psychology or whatever instead of business classes, it is entirely their choice, as it should be.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I've said enough on this subject. There's no point repeating what I've said again so I'll bow out from further postings here.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Matt, the students in a FIne Arts program are not really aware of any difference between what they are doing and vocational training, since they have to do so much actual production of work to graduate. So, the distinction you keep trying to make doesn't really make a lot of sense.
@VinceInMT, for example, wasn't just sitting in a room looking at slideshows of paintings and reading up on art history. He was engaged in practice and, essentially, artistic training - I doubt he would have gone if he had not.
The end of many Fine Arts programs often involves a gallery show of student work - I think most programs have them yearly.
In other words, students are not ever led to believe that they are not actually being trained to be working artists. So what would be the problem with introducing practical business concerns, to a relevant extent?

Don, I have no problem with adding some practical, "how to survive and prosper as a working artist" material to a Fine Arts focused curriculum - if it makes sense in the context of that particular faculty, and the resources available to it. Otherwise, it would probably make sense to refer students to other resources, and potentially work out arrangements for their obtaining degree credit for making use of those other resources.
But that is very different than training to be a successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business, whether large or small. This BFA program doesn't appear in any way to be suited to that.

As @MattKing pointed out, there are better people prepared to teach business practices outside the art schools.

 

[Don_ih]

But that is very different than training to be a successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business, whether large or small. This BFA program doesn't appear in any way to be suited to that.

No one is suggesting it should be. @Alan Edward Klein said some courses to inform students the things they'd need to work for themselves. Others here suggested workshops about the practical reality of working in a particular field. It's actually quite surprising that you would think anyone suggests a BFA should train someone to be a "successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business". You don't even need to know how to turn on a camera to run a professional photography business (although I imagine most do) - you need to know how to run a business.

But the reality, as pointed out by several in this thread, is that many people will try to be photographers and have no idea of how to approach the business side of it. An owner/operator business doesn't require a degree in business to run successfully. It would not hurt to introduce students who will potentially be such owner/operators of the basic requirements and challenges they will face.

Altogether too often, a perfectly reasonable suggestion is blown out of proportion in this forum.

To repeat: No one is saying a BFA should be a business program.

 

[faberryman]

To repeat: No one is saying a BFA should be a business program.

Right, no one is saying that. Did anyone think someone was saying that?

 

[Don_ih]

Did anyone think someone was saying that?

...training to be a successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business, whether large or small. This BFA program doesn't appear in any way to be suited to that.

If he's not saying that, then what exactly is he arguing against?

 

[Sirius Glass]

No one is suggesting it should be. @Alan Edward Klein said some courses to inform students the things they'd need to work for themselves. Others here suggested workshops about the practical reality of working in a particular field. It's actually quite surprising that you would think anyone suggests a BFA should train someone to be a "successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business". You don't even need to know how to turn on a camera to run a professional photography business (although I imagine most do) - you need to know how to run a business.

But the reality, as pointed out by several in this thread, is that many people will try to be photographers and have no idea of how to approach the business side of it. An owner/operator business doesn't require a degree in business to run successfully. It would not hurt to introduce students who will potentially be such owner/operators of the basic requirements and challenges they will face.

Altogether too often, a perfectly reasonable suggestion is blown out of proportion in this forum.

To repeat: No one is saying a BFA should be a business program.

However a few insist that a BFA must include a business program especially of the BFA student does not want to be involved in business or the business portion of the field. "Here! Drink this poison! It will be good for you because you do not want it!"

 

[faberryman]

To repeat: No one is saying a BFA should be a business program.

Right, no one is saying that. Did anyone think someone was saying that?

If he's not saying that, then what exactly is he arguing against?

Neither Matt nor anyone else is saying BFA should be a business program.

But that is very different than training to be a successful operator of a commercial or professional photography business, whether large or small. This BFA program doesn't appear in any way to be suited to that.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Neither Matt nor anyone else is saying BFA should be a business program.

Ah, but @Alan Edward Klein said so and insisted that it was ordained on high by himself.

 

[VinceInMT]

With the exception of engineering, education, and some sciences, 4-year institutions have not been thought of as vocational training. In California, where I am originally from, it was pretty clear that the vocational training is done at the 2-year colleges. For example, in Sacramento they have Sacramento City College which offers 2-year degrees and an assortment of certificates INCLUDING in photography. Take a look:

https://scc.losrios.edu/academics/programs-and-majors/photography

Here are their learning outcomes:

• describe technical and aesthetic qualities of successful photographs.
• produce photographs using various camera and digital methods.
• demonstrate a thorough knowledge of current computer software and digital imaging skills as they apply to photography.
• produce photographs using photographic papers and various digital media outputs.
• describe successful working relationships with clients and subjects.
• survey history, careers, styles, and trends in professional photography.
• develop pre-production shoot and planning methods.
• execute shoot production in both the studio and on location.
• demonstrate post production technical and creative solutions.
• develop a marketing plan, materials, and support process.
• develop a small business plan and organizational structure.

Isn’t this exactly what some are calling for? It appear to be available a mere 8 miles away from the university campus.

 

[BradS]

I've just discovered a bug / feature in the forum software.
It will not let me ignore this thread - presumably because I am the OP.

 

[BradS]

They have a darkroom and offer two darkroom classes !

 

[MattKing]

They have a darkroom and offer two darkroom classes !

Yes. This.
And it looks like that they also have a bunch of other classes that might greatly enrich the depth and breadth of photographic knowledge and experience of their students. And they are a local, State College.
These are all interesting and hopeful things!

 

[Don_ih]

Neither Matt nor anyone else is saying BFA should be a business program.

Matt was arguing as though other people were saying it - specifically Alan.

However a few insist that a BFA must include a business program especially of the BFA student does not want to be involved in business or the business portion of the field. "Here! Drink this poison! It will be good for you because you do not want it!"