Sacramento State offers a BFA in Photography

[Sirius Glass]

Instead of a course that's meant to be an introduction to a particular aspect of business, it would make more sense to offer a series of workshops tailored to operating a small business based around some art practice. That could introduce those students that were interested to what sorts of things they can expect and what sorts of things they must do. And, of course, that also would be difficult to staff. But various professional artists could be approached to lead relevant discussions. But that would all be best left informal and not a degree requirement.
Offer wine and cheese, though, and attendance would bloom.

A few business courses will not be enough. Enroll in a business school and take as many courses as necessary, which may mean getting a degree. Skimping on any area of knowledge is "pennywise & pound foolish" or is it "gram smart & kilo stupid"?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

As if the art they produced, and all of the art that hangs in museums today were utterly without value.

If you do not have the business accumen to sell your work then you're of no value to society...is that it?

...and what about all of the work produced by the poets and novelist and composers who died in poverty because their work didn't get published in their lifetimes or wasn't wildly successful then but is now?

Where would we humans be without art?

Every human being has value. Of course, art has value. It provides for our spiritual, emotional and mental needs. But we also have to eat. Children have to eventually leave their parents. People should not become wards of the state. Producing photos that wind up in a box in your closet helps no one - neither the artist or society. Additionally, I think we have a responsibility to provide the right tools to help people be productive, and artistic. Helping the artist sell his work actually is beneficial in the way you want. I don't see a conflict.

 

[DREW WILEY]

If you want to get hired in this day and age with all its tremendous amount of competition for positions, it really helps not to be a one trick pony. The sharp kid working his way through a digital imagining program at UC Davis by sweeping our floors asked my advice and took it. So he made the effort to learn traditional illustration using pencil and pigments, and learned basic black and white film photography and darkroom printing, and had some nice examples of it. Then when he went out looking for work, he had samples of all three in his portfolio : digital imagery, film photography, and manual illustration. That demonstrated his VERSATILITY and ABILITY TO LEARN OTHER THINGS, and put him right at the head of the pack. His very first job in the Advertising Division of a Fortune 500 company paid him over 200K per yr. How many 26 yr-olds have that opportunity?

Another fellow worked with us who was quite skilled in the digital methods; but it took him eight years just to get an entry level job into that career due to all the one-trick-pony competition out there. People move here from all over the country trying to get a foot in the door; but there's no guarantee. Digital illustrators are dime a dozen. You need to somehow stand out.

Lots of smart tech students here at UCB locally have a double major, often in business or law. A young friend of mine who recently got his PhD in Genetic Engineering just got hired by a Venture Capital company instead, at the financial end of Biotech. It's all interwoven.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you want to get hired in this day and age with all its tremendous amount of competition for positions, it really helps not to be a one trick pony. The sharp kid working his way through a digital imagining program at UC Davis by sweeping our floors asked my advice and took it. So he made the effort to learn traditional illustration using pencil and pigments, and learned basic black and white film photography and darkroom printing, and had some nice examples of it. Then when he went out looking for work, he had samples of all three in his portfolio : digital imagery, film photography, and manual illustration. That demonstrated his VERSATILITY and ABILITY TO LEARN OTHER THINGS, and put him right at the head of the pack. His very first job in the Advertising Division of a Fortune 500 company paid him over 200K per yr.

Another fellow worked with us who was quite skilled in the digital methods; but it took him eight years just to get an entry level job into that career due to all the one-trick-pony competition out there. People move here from all over the country trying to get a foot in the door; but there's no guarantee. You need to somehow stand out. Lots of smart tech
students here at UCB have a double major, often in business or law. A young friend of mine who recently got his PhD
in Genetic Engineering just got hired by a Venture Capital company instead, at the financial end of Biotech. It's all interwoven.

To go a step further: Earning a degree is and should be more than learning a trade, rather it should also be to learn to use a particular library so that when one needs to expand their career background or move in a different direction. That way one can go to the library and learn about a new area and build that knowledge base to self train in the new field. I did that many times as the job market changed and I grew.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Helping the artist sell his work actually is beneficial in the way you want.

Well, if you are talking artists, and not commercial photographer (a confusion that is unfortunately pervasive in the thread, as the program aims for artists and not necessarily future commercial photographers), I can guarantee you that there isn't a single business course that would help the artist sell his work. Great artists have agents for that. Good to run-of-the-mill artists who want to sell their work need mostly to have a good website, basic marketing skills, and lots of luck, but even then, they won't, or rarely will (hence, luck) make a living out of it. Mediocre artists, well, you don't want to help them sell their works.

 

[VinceInMT]

No. I didn't say stop. I said embellish the program with courses that would help the graduates get a job in the field or help them create ones for themselves.

Whether it be in high school or higher ed (I’ve taught in both) there are frequent calls to include this or that in one program or another as if those programs have empty slots they are looking to fill. When a new course is required, something else gets cut and every course has its supporters that don’t want to see them cut.

The kind of thing you are calling for does not even need a full semester course. It would be simpler to just hand every incoming freshman a copy of “Starting a Small Business for Dummies.”

BTW, when I decided to get my BFA I was only required to take the classes required by the art department, none of the general education courses, because I already have a masters degree. The exception were two college writing classes which I successfully challenged. However, there are a bunch of required short courses that I found a complete waste of my time, primarily due to my age, and I tried everything to get out of them, but to no avail as they blocked me from registering for my senior year until I completed them. They were provided online.

One was about personal financial responsibility and went over budgeting, borrowing, understanding income requirements. As someone who is retired and has only ever borrowed money once in my life (for my first home) I didn’t need to be counseled on car payments, student loans, rental agreements, etc. but there you are, I had to do it.

Another course was in sexual harassment, bullying, discrimination, and such.

The third one was in the issue of drugs and alcohol, especially at parties. I tried to get out of that one and told them that I don’t get invited to those parties but they made me take the course anyway.

To succeed in each course it’s necessary to pass a variety of multiple choice tests. I suppose that because of issues that young people have that these are probably beneficial but there was a bunch of time I’ll never get back.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Maybe you should read the program's description again (emphasis mine):

The Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography at Sacramento State is aimed at educating students in contemporary photographic methodologies and in the current situation of photography, its use and its communicative effects. The curriculum is designed to give students a broad exposure to not only the technologies, processes, and models of contemporary practice, but also to introduce them to the aesthetic, cultural, and ethical dialogues surround the use and role of photography in our society. The program does not aim to create, specifically, studio artists or commercial practitioners, but to give students the tools to act in a world where such models are concurrent and highly overlap. We wish our students to be adaptable in a changing landscape of photographic practice, and to be successful and responsible in their role shaping how and what images communicate.

Asking students to spend a whole semester taking business and accounting classes is not only absurd, its runs counter to the program's motives — i.e., not create a job for themselves but create a photographic practice that fits their aspirations, sensitivities and desires. To help them find themselves, in other words, which is what education is supposed to do.

Too bad this discussion end it up focussing on this, as there are many really interesting things stated in that description. Photography, as practice, is changing and evolving, and this seems to want to address these changes, with a real open view about them. It leaves the decision to the student, at the end, if he/she wants to be a fine arts photographer, documentary photographer, photo journalist, or commercial practitioner. And nothing prevents any of them of taking a two-week business crash-course after graduation, if they feel they need it.

I studied music at a (tax-payer funded) State University and the last thing I would have wanted was to have to spend time each week learning the wonderful intricacies of Excel formulas. Made a great living without such courses just fine.

The program is as dreamy as most of the students who sign up. Providing more tools to expand their work possibilities is not conflicting.

You said photography is changing and that we should address these things. I agree. The administrators who set up the courses should think about other possibilities. They seem to be stuck on the same types of courses. The reason they again teach film is because it's become a fad recently. So they're playing to the young photographer he wants to be "in" and "with it". How about thinking about their real future? I suggested in a previous post, AI training. What's wrong with a course on AI programming. Make them valuable to photo employers. Give them tools to "hire" themselves. What courses would you suggest to make them more valuable?

 

[VinceInMT]

Food for thought:

”Student loan borrowers with law degrees are the most likely to fall into delinquency. 54.4% of law degree holders are delinquent in their student loan payments at least once.”

National Student Loan Default Rate [2023]: Delinquency Data

An analysis of student loan default rates along with financial consequences and solutions for students with loans in default.

educationdata.org

 

[BradS]

....

Too bad this discussion end it up focusing on this...

Yes. It is a [redacted] tragedy.

 

[warden]

Why not? A few course on simple accounting, how to set up a small business, would be helpful for the photographer who can't find a job and needs to do something on their own like wedding photography.

It's a BFA, not a BS in photography.

BFA curriculum tend to be focused on the art education at hand with less requirements about other areas of study such as business. If you want to adjust the BFA curriculum to include mandatory business classes for instance, you have to choose other important classes to drop as you have only so many credits to offer for the degree. Since not all photography BFA candidates want to start a business (no surprise there whatsoever) that would be a hard sell for faculty and students alike.

Drexel for example has a BS in photography that includes Photography and Business (required), Photography Production (required), Print and Web Portfolio Development (required), and Marketing for Photographers (elective). They also offer a cooperative education assignment for students desiring professional experience before graduation.

But that's not a BFA. Drexel doesn't offer one.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Well, if you are talking artists, and not commercial photographer (a confusion that is unfortunately pervasive in the thread, as the program aims for artists and not necessarily future commercial photographers), I can guarantee you that there isn't a single business course that would help the artist sell his work. Great artists have agents for that. Good to run-of-the-mill artists who want to sell their work need mostly to have a good website, basic marketing skills, and lots of luck, but even then, they won't, or rarely will (hence, luck) make a living out of it. Mediocre artists, well, you don't want to help them sell their works.

How about courses on basic marketing and setting up a website? Luck, they'll have to get elsewhere.

If they're going to never make a living out of it, should we be encouraging youngsters to go into debt for $100,000. Tell them to go get a job as an apprentice for a wedding photographer.

 

[VinceInMT]

…The reason they again teach film is because it's become a fad recently. So they're playing to the young photographer he wants to be "in" and "with it". …

Hmmm, so the fact that they still teach courses in drawing with charcoal is a fad in light of all the digital tools that are out there?

How about thinking about their real future? I suggested in a previous post, AI training. What's wrong with a course on AI programming. Make them valuable to photo employers. Give them tools to "hire" themselves. What courses would you suggest to make them more valuable?

Do you write software? The person who is drawn to that, and is successful, usually is not the same one with artistic inclinations.

 

[mrosenlof]

From my daughter, a BFA grad of Kansas City Art Institute.

>> I did take a business class! We covered how to do taxes when you have multiple income sources/are self
>> employed, making websites, applying for residencies, how to work with galleries, stuff like that.

I forgot to ask if the class was required, but it sounds quite artist-oriented.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well, if you are talking artists, and not commercial photographer (a confusion that is unfortunately pervasive in the thread, as the program aims for artists and not necessarily future commercial photographers), I can guarantee you that there isn't a single business course that would help the artist sell his work. Great artists have agents for that. Good to run-of-the-mill artists who want to sell their work need mostly to have a good website, basic marketing skills, and lots of luck, but even then, they won't, or rarely will (hence, luck) make a living out of it. Mediocre artists, well, you don't want to help them sell their works.

I needed one more course in grad school. To take a high enough level course I would have had to take several lower level prerequisite courses, so I took one business course. Did that make a difference in the career? No, but I learned about diversification, how to plan using the tax laws to leverage ones position and several other useful things that I used for saving and building towards my retirement.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Whether it be in high school or higher ed (I’ve taught in both) there are frequent calls to include this or that in one program or another as if those programs have empty slots they are looking to fill. When a new course is required, something else gets cut and every course has its supporters that don’t want to see them cut.

The kind of thing you are calling for does not even need a full semester course. It would be simpler to just hand every incoming freshman a copy of “Starting a Small Business for Dummies.”

BTW, when I decided to get my BFA I was only required to take the classes required by the art department, none of the general education courses, because I already have a masters degree. The exception were two college writing classes which I successfully challenged. However, there are a bunch of required short courses that I found a complete waste of my time, primarily due to my age, and I tried everything to get out of them, but to no avail as they blocked me from registering for my senior year until I completed them. They were provided online.

One was about personal financial responsibility and went over budgeting, borrowing, understanding income requirements. As someone who is retired and has only ever borrowed money once in my life (for my first home) I didn’t need to be counseled on car payments, student loans, rental agreements, etc. but there you are, I had to do it.

Another course was in sexual harassment, bullying, discrimination, and such.

The third one was in the issue of drugs and alcohol, especially at parties. I tried to get out of that one and told them that I don’t get invited to those parties but they made me take the course anyway.

To succeed in each course it’s necessary to pass a variety of multiple choice tests. I suppose that because of issues that young people have that these are probably beneficial but there was a bunch of time I’ll never get back.

I'm not suggesting Vince that old farts like us need those courses they made you take. We have the luxury of doing it only for love. But youngsters starting out need guidance. Like you said, schools have their own internal politics about which courses get cut, changed or added. The kids' futures often aren't considered. That's unfortunate.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It's a BFA, not a BS in photography.

BFA curriculum tend to be focused on the art education at hand with less requirements about other areas of study such as business. If you want to adjust the BFA curriculum to include mandatory business classes for instance, you have to choose other important classes to drop as you have only so many credits to offer for the degree. Since not all photography BFA candidates want to start a business (no surprise there whatsoever) that would be a hard sell for faculty and students alike.

Drexel for example has a BS in photography that includes Photography and Business (required), Photography Production (required), Print and Web Portfolio Development (required), and Marketing for Photographers (elective). They also offer a cooperative education assignment for students desiring professional experience before graduation.

But that's not a BFA. Drexel doesn't offer one.

Drexel's got it right. Why is government through its state colleges, encouraging youngsters, with no life experience to know better, to borrow $100,000 for a BFA? What are we doing as a society? The funny thing is it should be the private colleges like Drexel who offer BFA's. If you got the money, go pay for it and do it.

 

[koraks]

People, let's steer this thread clear of more politics/policy, let alone religion. Thanks.
(I think we've never had this many reports on one thread within such a short timeframe!)

 

[Sirius Glass]

People, let's steer this thread clear of more politics/policy, let alone religion. Thanks.
(I think we've never had this many reports on one thread within such a short timeframe!)

About time! I recommend that you change the color from blue to red.

 

[Don_ih]

ergo ?

it literally has no value?

and artists are not productive members of society?

The only point of what I said was that most people who try to make art can't sell it. The discussion here started by Alan is about being able to support oneself after graduating with a BFA. Societal and personal value - and significance and meaning - are all other concerns.

Another route towards a solution, which is perhaps just as challenging, but also just as necessary (in my view) is setting changes in motion in society that foster the arts.

This country is a society that fosters the arts through grants and various programs. What people learn to do is be able to write a proposal compelling enough to get a grant every year. It really doesn't matter what they do after that. Their work may get a short stay in a gallery or be installed in a public place for a while. Then it, well, usually gets shoved in a shed somewhere.

 

[koraks]

I see what you mean @Don_ih , but to be sure, I was referring to Western society as a whole, not a particular country or state. But what you say IMO illustrates how the problem is embedded in our institutions.

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, I’ve had and enjoyed much more long lasting and meaningful benefits from my educational experiences that were of least practical use. The strictly practical and vocationally oriented stuff is quick to pick up and changes frequently, whereas the inspirational and revelatory vision stuff stays with you and keeps adding to your well-being. That, and the connections you make with others have much more value.

 

[Vaughn]

Hmmm....only 9 units of darkroom classes for a BFA in Photography? Two or three classes? Such are the times! I had far more than that and I was not even an art major...

As far as I can tell, the major purpose of earning a BFA is to apply for MFA programs. The Art Dept I worked at for couple decades finally quit their MA program because its grads had a tough time competing against BFA students for MFA programs (the terminal art degree for non-art history grads)...so they started a BFA program instead. (in Art, not specifically photography, but can include photography).

So while business classes are not usually required to apply for an MFA, even our BA in Art program had a class or two in professional topics (website, resume writing, all that stuff). And if I went thru Sac States's Art Dept course list, such classes are probably offered in the dept and encouraged to take (if not required). A course that covers taxes...hmmm...probably not in the Art Dept. unless they tie-in with the Business Dept.

PS -- People get caught up in getting the newest equipment, etc for a university's digital labs. In reality, it is relatively unimportant compared to teaching the students art...about color, form, texture, composition, the history of art, the pyschological impacts of art on the viewer...design stuff. That is what a hiring company is looking for -- they will train new employees on their (old or new) computer system(s)...it will depend on how trainable the new hire is and what they can produce that will allow them to keep the job.

PS #2 -- Hire a successful art student...based on their portfolio. It will show if they are capable of original thought, extreme demanding work, and concentration.

PS #3 -- what the heck, go for three...Sac State's MFA is a program given on top of what the university requires ALL majors to take as "General Education Requirements". This is where business classes are usually offered for non-business majors...either required or as an option under CSU system-wide requirements. https://catalog.csus.edu/colleges/arts-letters/design/photography/bfa-photography/

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

I wouldn’t say “no one.” As a recent BFA graduate (a year ago), the same month I turned 70, I pursued the degree purely for personal growth, acquisition of knowledge, expansion of skill sets, and fun. While not the traditional student, I was not the only one in my category.

You are an extreme exception. Surely you aren't so blind to not realize that.

 

[warden]

Drexel's got it right. Why is government through its state colleges, encouraging youngsters, with no life experience to know better, to borrow $100,000 for a BFA? What are we doing as a society?

All the hand wringing aside, I count six photography business related classes and internships in the curriculum at Penn State for the Bachelor of Design in Photography. It's a public university. Classes with names like Self-Marketing and Professional Presence, Arts Entrepreneurship and the Law, Arts Marketing, etc.

BA, BFA, BS, B.Des, there is a case to be made for all of them depending on the student's needs. None are "better" than the others by definition. The student just needs to know what they want to learn about and make a reasoned choice.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

When I got my engineering degree (graduated in 2007), we didn't have to take business courses per-se. At the time, my major had the highest average first-job-after-college salary of any college major, and the expectation was that graduates would get jobs working for someone else. That said we were required to take a course in business communications as well as one in professional ethics. And of course we had to take the usual general ed courses including courses in the humanities. I don't think it's weird to think that students majoring in the arts should be required to take courses in different topics that are relevant to their future career, and even some that aren't directly relevant. College should prepare one for a career, but it should also produce someone well-rounded, IMO.

Engineers don't need to know anything about business; businesses hire them as fulltime employees and pay them well. There are virtually NO jobs for phootgraphers, a small number for graphic designers, and absolutely NONE for painters and sculptors. To be successful, a photographer or any other kind of artist must be a self-employed small businessperson. Full stop.

My 26 year old son has a computer science degree from Purdue; and here in Indiana, he makes very, very good money as a software engineer. When he was in college, he started posting 3D modeled illustrations that he made of spacecraft, rockets, satellites, the ISS, etc. online. It was a hobby, but he is very talented. Aerospace companies began contacting him to ask to use his illustrations, and many wanted to commission him to do illustrations. They use these for marketing materials, showing things they're planning to design and build. He had never taken an art class, and had never taken any classes on how to run a creative business. His degree didn't require that because software engineers always get real jobs. If he had gotten an art degree, he would have been just as clueless about how to make money from his work; that is wrong, and is a big reason why we have so many 'starving artists.'

Fortunately, he had a working artist for a father, and when these requests began to come in, he came to me and asked for advice. I told him about negotiating terms for usage of his work, prices to charge for licensing, what to charge for commissioned work, what to do about taxes, how to engage people on social media, etc. He makes enough money to live a middle class life just from his art, and that's not including his salary from his job as a software developer. There is good money to be made from art, but most art students have no clue how to do it after they graduate.