Sacramento State offers a BFA in Photography

[Don_ih]

Just because there will be people who will ignore the help doesn't mean we should not provide it.

That's why I suggested it should be more informal, not a requirement, and geared more toward interest and practically related to the particular field - not general business courses.

Business courses are not required but they are certainly available.

Business courses are part of a business program, in university and college. They are incomplete (unless you do the program) and will be largely irrelevant to the particular needs of an art student that may open a small business.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Instead of a course that's meant to be an introduction to a particular aspect of business, it would make more sense to offer a series of workshops tailored to operating a small business based around some art practice. That could introduce those students that were interested to what sorts of things they can expect and what sorts of things they must do. And, of course, that also would be difficult to staff. But various professional artists could be approached to lead relevant discussions. But that would all be best left informal and not a degree requirement.
Offer wine and cheese, though, and attendance would bloom.

I like this idea. It should be a requirement. I also noticed that there is internship as part of the current program at the University. That's also very helpful in exposing the students to actual jobs as well as getting some experience in business. Internship is very practical.

 

[armadsen]

When I got my engineering degree (graduated in 2007), we didn't have to take business courses per-se. At the time, my major had the highest average first-job-after-college salary of any college major, and the expectation was that graduates would get jobs working for someone else. That said we were required to take a course in business communications as well as one in professional ethics. And of course we had to take the usual general ed courses including courses in the humanities. I don't think it's weird to think that students majoring in the arts should be required to take courses in different topics that are relevant to their future career, and even some that aren't directly relevant. College should prepare one for a career, but it should also produce someone well-rounded, IMO.

 

[Don_ih]

as well as one in professional ethics

I TA'd that course a couple of times. Marked over a thousand papers. Well over 90% of them showed no interest in the topic whatsoever - and no depth of understanding. However, I wasn't allowed to mark them like I would a paper in a BA program. They all had to pass.

 

[VinceInMT]

Very interesting. I think they should include some business courses.

If you look at the plan of study, there is plenty of room for picking up an elective or two from the business department should the student feel a need to expand their knowledge in that area.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

That's why I suggested it should be more informal, not a requirement, and geared more toward interest and practically related to the particular field - not general business courses.



Business courses are part of a business program, in university and college. They are incomplete (unless you do the program) and will be largely irrelevant to the particular needs of an art student that may open a small business.

The business courses I'm referring to are not formal business administration degree type courses.I'm referring to how to set up a small Corporation. What taxes and payment schedules must be set up. What type of Corporation or business should be set up. How to calculate markups .Just practical stuff like the Small Business Administration provides although I've never taken any of their courses..

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

If you look at the plan of study, there is plenty of room for picking up an elective or two from the business department should the student feel a need to expand their knowledge in that area.

Make it a requirement.

This is a State University funded by taxpayers. We should be preparing our citizens to be productive. Don't we insist upon certain courses in our public high schools?

 

[VinceInMT]

Yeah, they do. Really. No one enrolls in an art program without hoping to make a living from it, and that's true not only for photographers but for painters, sculptors, etc. …

I wouldn’t say “no one.” As a recent BFA graduate (a year ago), the same month I turned 70, I pursued the degree purely for personal growth, acquisition of knowledge, expansion of skill sets, and fun. While not the traditional student, I was not the only one in my category.

 

[armadsen]

I TA'd that course a couple of times. Marked over a thousand papers. Well over 90% of them showed no interest in the topic whatsoever - and no depth of understanding. However, I wasn't allowed to mark them like I would a paper in a BA program. They all had to pass.

That seems like a failure of the institution, as much as the students. Not being allowed to fail students that don't take a course seriously isn't an indictment of the idea of requiring a course, it's an indictment of the people in charge. I took a history of rock and roll class because I thought it would be a fun, easy A, and it fulfilled a general ed requirement of some sort. It had zero relevance to my future career. The professor took it seriously, and most of the class was shocked when grades on the first exam were very low (it was hard!). We took it pretty seriously after that.

 

[VinceInMT]

Make it a requirement.

This is a State University funded by taxpayers. We should be preparing our citizens to be productive. Don't we insist upon certain courses in our public high schools?

It sounds like you would want to eliminate programs/degrees that don’t lead to a specific career path.

 

[mrosenlof]

I won't comment on if the major should or should not require some business courses. The web page for the major DOES have a section called "Career Possibilities" for what that's worth.

My daughter finished a BFA (ceramics) a couple of years ago. I'm trying to remember if she took any small business type courses. I just sent an e-mail to ask.

 

[Don_ih]

Not being allowed to fail students that don't take a course seriously isn't an indictment of the idea of requiring a course,

They could fail the course easily enough. But their "opinion" papers were not to be failed - probably to avoid the flurry of complaints that the professor would need to field.

The lack of interest is the actual indictment. But that course was highly relevant to their program of study, in all respects. It wasn't abstract. There were many real-world case studies covered to ground the ethical principles involved.

 

[MattKing]

Business courses are not required but they are certainly available. Again, nothing prevents any art major or any other student from taking business courses if they want to .

And Sacramento State appears to have a full department offering them.
I'm going to hazard a guess that Alan has never spent much time working or studying in an Arts related post-secondary institution.
As posted earlier, you really don't want to go to them for training relating to business!
If you look through the course descriptions of Sacramento State's Photography BFA you will see that there are some components that have more relevance to commercial or professional photography, and many components that would have less such relevance. Most likely the instructors for some of the components will have practical experience with photographic business, and would no doubt pass on advice about the importance of having business knowledge and training, but a BFA program is not where you should go for that.
Attending something like a BFA institution is an immersive experience, and much of the educational benefit comes from the interaction with others involved in it - essentially the culture. And that culture would be entirely different than one that would do a good job of training in business skills.
If you are looking for vocational training, look for a different program.
For instance, this program at Langara Community College, which is local to me:
https://langara.ca/programs-and-courses/programs/photo-imaging/index.html
From the blurb for that program:

 

[BradS]

Make it a requirement.

.... We should be preparing our citizens to be productive.....

Surely, you're not suggesting that artists who make art are not productive members of society.

 

[Don_ih]

Surely, you're not suggesting that artists who make art are not productive members of society.

I think he's suggesting that they're not productive if they can't support themselves.

 

[VinceInMT]

Instead of a course that's meant to be an introduction to a particular aspect of business, it would make more sense to offer a series of workshops tailored to operating a small business based around some art practice….

At the university I just graduated from, for the BFA we took three courses in “Professional Practices.” The first one, covered a variety of topics and touched on the business side of the art world. I asked if we’d be going into depth on setting up one’s business and was told we wouldn’t so I volunteered to teach a section on that within that class and was granted permission to do so. As a decades long high school teacher, preparing a lesson plan was a no-brainer and I am married to a licensed accountant who provided the details. I put together a PowerPoint that went over the ins and outs of setting up one’s own business, the licensing, the bookkeeping requirements, taxes, etc. I gave the PowerPont to the professor with permission to use it in future classes.

The 2nd course was Gallery Practices, a 3 credit class that went through the details of the gallery business and the relationships with museums. This course covered lots of business topics and one of the major assignments was to set up a fictitious major show at a real gallery. We were required to contact our selected gallery and work with their director or registrar to learn about costs of shipping, contracts, stipends, honorariums, etc. for their specific facility. I selected a gallery in Idaho and found them extremely willing to help me out on the project. Another major assignment was to do an installation of a show in our university’s large gallery, which coincided with a major exhibition of student work. There is more than hammering a nail in the wall when it comes to doing installations and this was a great learning experience. BTW, the text for this course was “The Curator’s Handbook” by Adrian George.

In the 3rd class, “Advanced Professional Practices,” it focussed primarily on how to mount an exhibition of your own work. We made sample postcards, posters, press releases, etc. It culminated with one’s solo exhibition (senior show) in one of the university’s galleries where each of us was responsible for the advertising, installation, reception, and every thing else that goes with putting on a show.

So, while not taking a specific course in business, there was lots of practice experience embedded in the degree program.

 

[BradS]

I think he's suggesting that they're not productive if they can't support themselves.

As if the art they produced, and all of the art that hangs in museums today were utterly without value.

If you do not have the business accumen to sell your work then you're of no value to society...is that it?

...and what about all of the work produced by the poets and novelist and composers who died in poverty because their work didn't get published in their lifetimes or wasn't wildly successful then but is now?

Where would we humans be without art?

 

[Don_ih]

As if the art they produced, and all of the art that hangs in museums today were utterly without value.

If you do not have the business accumen to sell your work then you're of no value to society...is that it?

Where would we humans be without art?

Almost no art actually sells.

 

[BradS]

Almost no art actually sells.

ergo ?

it literally has no value?

and artists are not productive members of society?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It sounds like you would want to eliminate programs/degrees that don’t lead to a specific career path.

No. I didn't say stop. I said embellish the program with courses that would help the graduates get a job in the field or help them create ones for themselves.

 

[faberryman]

Almost no art actually sells.

Sounds like investing in a Stor'n'Lock facility (or a landfill) might be more lucrative that investing in art.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

And Sacramento State appears to have a full department offering them.
I'm going to hazard a guess that Alan has never spent much time working or studying in an Arts related post-secondary institution.
As posted earlier, you really don't want to go to them for training relating to business!
If you look through the course descriptions of Sacramento State's Photography BFA you will see that there are some components that have more relevance to commercial or professional photography, and many components that would have less such relevance. Most likely the instructors for some of the components will have practical experience with photographic business, and would no doubt pass on advice about the importance of having business knowledge and training, but a BFA program is not where you should go for that.
Attending something like a BFA institution is an immersive experience, and much of the educational benefit comes from the interaction with others involved in it - essentially the culture. And that culture would be entirely different than one that would do a good job of training in business skills.
If you are looking for vocational training, look for a different program.
For instance, this program at Langara Community College, which is local to me:
https://langara.ca/programs-and-courses/programs/photo-imaging/index.html
From the blurb for that program:
View attachment 345647

I checked Langara's courses and they're very similar to Sacramento State's. Little real world preparatory courses. Mainly technical and historical. Little business that I can see.
https://langara.ca/programs-and-courses/courses/PHOT/index.html

Regarding getting business training, what I'm suggesting is that there are a dearth of jobs in photography and it's getting worse with AI. Helping the art graduate find a job through internship and learning simple business starting skills while focusing on art should be part of the program. College is supposed to prepare young people to be able to feed themselves when they leave their parents. Being stuck with $100,000 in debt and not finding a photo job that pays much is just saddling young people with a dim future.


You keep bringing up my schooling experience as if a 78-year-old like me who's live a life doesn't have common sense to make decisions for let's say my children who might be interested in art. Do I need to have attended art or business school to encourage them to take ancillary courses that will help them prepare for the real world? Maybe these colleges should require a course on simple programming related to AI. If I ran a photo business, a job candidate with that aptitude would be more valuable to me than just another dreamy photographer who understands the exposure triangle or zone system. The point is, institutions have to care more about their art students' future. And there are millions of young adults, heavy in school debt, just not prepared to face the real employment world.

 

[Paul Howell]

The Dept of Education has stopped offering pell grants and students loans for a number of degrees, Culinary Arts and graphic designer at some schools. The Art Institute offered a BA in Culinary Arts and Graphic Design, total coast was around $85,000 for jobs that pay minimum wage. The Wall Street Journal followed up with a graduating class at one of the Florida Campus and after 2 years no one was working in food service, could not pay for the loans. Once student loans dried up the Art Institute closed all campus and degrees including a Doctorial degree in Psychology that left a lot of students in a lurch as they can no longer get official transcripts.

ASU still offers a degree in Photography in the School of Arts but has dropped the photojournalism degree in the School of Journalism. The arts program still requires coursework in film and darkroom. ASU also also an online degree in digital photography.

As one time the core of a liberal arts education is not teach a marketable skill rather a educated citizen. As tuition has gone up there is more and more emphasis on marketable degrees.

 

[koraks]

ergo ?

it literally has no value?

and artists are not productive members of society?

You make a very valid point. One way of attacking the problem is by somehow trying to make artists fit into the present societal structure which is not geared towards supporting (let alone rewarding) them financially. Another route towards a solution, which is perhaps just as challenging, but also just as necessary (in my view) is setting changes in motion in society that foster the arts.

Value is a tricky concept. In a reflex, we're geared to think in terms of monetary value, or at least value that can be expressed in financial terms. I think we all agree that this is a short-sighted concept - but when it comes to the position of arts in society, it's a very difficult view to change or circumvent (or enrich).

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I said embellish the program with courses that would help the graduates get a job in the field or help them create ones for themselves.

Maybe you should read the program's description again (emphasis mine):

The Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography at Sacramento State is aimed at educating students in contemporary photographic methodologies and in the current situation of photography, its use and its communicative effects. The curriculum is designed to give students a broad exposure to not only the technologies, processes, and models of contemporary practice, but also to introduce them to the aesthetic, cultural, and ethical dialogues surround the use and role of photography in our society. The program does not aim to create, specifically, studio artists or commercial practitioners, but to give students the tools to act in a world where such models are concurrent and highly overlap. We wish our students to be adaptable in a changing landscape of photographic practice, and to be successful and responsible in their role shaping how and what images communicate.

Asking students to spend a whole semester taking business and accounting classes is not only absurd, its runs counter to the program's motives — i.e., not create a job for themselves but create a photographic practice that fits their aspirations, sensitivities and desires. To help them find themselves, in other words, which is what education is supposed to do.

Too bad this discussion end it up focussing on this, as there are many really interesting things stated in that description. Photography, as practice, is changing and evolving, and this seems to want to address these changes, with a real open view about them. It leaves the decision to the student, at the end, if he/she wants to be a fine arts photographer, documentary photographer, photo journalist, or commercial practitioner. And nothing prevents any of them of taking a two-week business crash-course after graduation, if they feel they need it.

I studied music at a (tax-payer funded) State University and the last thing I would have wanted was to have to spend time each week learning the wonderful intricacies of Excel formulas. Made a great living without such courses just fine.