Rolleiflex T - Film advance mechanism broken

[mau]

Hello everybody, I've got a Rolleiflex T that gets stuck when advancing the film after the shutter releases.
I opened the camera and the problem was pretty clear: upon releasing the shutter, an arm that was supposed to go back in place in a locked position was getting stuck midway.
I'm attaching a video of the issue


In turns that piece getting stuck was causing the lock mechanism to be triggered ahead of time upon advancing the crank , before the shutter had time to be cocked.
Now, I've tried to clean the parts with lighter fluid already, but nothing got unstuck.
Does anybody have an idea of what I could try next?

I thought about diassembling the whole thing, but I can't lift the frame counter wheel for some reason...all I can see is a screw that I can remove, but I believe there's a spring underneath that's holding the wheel fixed in place and I don't know how to deal wth that.

Thanks to anybody that can help me with that

 

[Dan Daniel]

So, if that long piece comes down and latches over at the bottom there, the action that you are doing manually, then everything is fine?

Are you pressing the shutter button as far as it will go. beyond any shutter release point?

The part that it latches onto, with the screw through it, is that adjustable?

And is the pinned part that slides up and down adjustable? Hard to see but it might be cam shaped and if rotated will lead to more downward motion.

And then in the slot at the bottom is a tab with a gap. The moving part comes down onto the tab. Often a tab like that is an indicator of an adjustment point. Rollei uses this type of thing often. So it could be that a slight bending of that tab up will lead to the proper downward motion. Put a biggish screwdriver in the slot and do a gentle gentle bed to see if it will move up a bit.

Anyway, this whole area is an adjustment point on the camera. Been a while since I've worked on one so don't remember the specifics. But it should be adjustable and able to be made to latch. It should also be adjustable to allow for the shutter release point and the latching point to be concurrent so that you don't have to worry about either releasing the wind and locking the shutter before it fires (the worst) or the shutter fires without releasing the wind (annoying but you just press the button harder most times and the wind is released).

 

[mau]

Hey, thanks for your answer!

So, if that long piece comes down and latches over at the bottom there, the action that you are doing manually, then everything is fine?

Yes

Are you pressing the shutter button as far as it will go. beyond any shutter release point?

Yes

The part that it latches onto, with the screw through it, is that adjustable?

I tried to fiddle with it a bit. The hole the screw is passing through is elongated, so it can be moved up and down. If I move it all the way up, the long piece latches every time, but then upon winding the crank the lock mechamism will trigger instantly instead of when the next frame is reached. In most other intermediate positions I basically either get the instant locking, or the part doesn't latch. At some tpoint I thought I found a good middle ground where everything was working, and it did for a couple of counter rounds, but then it stopped working again. The whole adjustement thing didn't feel very good/consistent.

And is the pinned part that slides up and down adjustable? Hard to see but it might be cam shaped and if rotated will lead to more downward motion.

I'm not sure about this. The head is not flat, there are two notches which are visible in the video...do you think it can be adjusted with a spanner?

And then in the slot at the bottom is a tab with a gap. The moving part comes down onto the tab. Often a tab like that is an indicator of an adjustment point. Rollei uses this type of thing often. So it could be that a slight bending of that tab up will lead to the proper downward motion. Put a biggish screwdriver in the slot and do a gentle gentle bed to see if it will move up a bit.

You mean the little piece of metal that I marked with a red dot in this picture?
That is very soft and it can be bent quite easily. It didn't help as far as I can tell

Do you happen to have any info on how to remove the frame counting wheel? On this T model it's not the spanner screw + three small screws like the normal Rolleiflex. Once the only visible screw is removed, the wheel feels like it's connected to the body with a spring underneath and I can't get it to budge without force

 

[mau]

And then in the slot at the bottom is a tab with a gap. The moving part comes down onto the tab. Often a tab like that is an indicator of an adjustment point. Rollei uses this type of thing often. So it could be that a slight bending of that tab up will lead to the proper downward motion. Put a biggish screwdriver in the slot and do a gentle gentle bed to see if it will move up a bit.

Sorry I think I understand now what you meant here.
That little tab is kinda rigid, I tried as you suggested but the whole arm was flexing a little bit because it's mostly empty and thin, while that little tab didn't move.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Yeah, ok, that slot above is what I meant.

You can remove the screw holding the bottom block in place and that flat piece that goes across should lift off. I think that it is simply a cover to keep the large lever from lifting. Lift the lever away and look at the little tab underneath. Those two notches are to unscrew, another common Rolleiflex thing. You might find that the part is eccentric and travel can be varied.

The counter draws a blank in my memory, sorry. I do remember that the thin black part with the hole to see the frame number is very thin and bends easily!

 

[mau]

I just gave it another try at adjusting the height of that block to which the lever is latching.
I have to say, it's extremely sensitive. The tiniest of nudges results in either of the two problems (locking prematurely/level not latching).

anyway, I found perhaps a good position, I made a dozen rounds around the counter with test film and it worked...but having seen how sensitive it was I'm very scared it's gonna happen again.

I'll keep in mind your suggestion of trying to adjust the peg under the lever, but for now I'm scared of touching that piece again

Thanks for your help!

 

[Alex Varas]

I had that problem once, that tab at the bottom that you point out was responsible. I found the correct position and good to go.

 

[bdial]

There are some Rollei service manuals available for download (for a small fee) on Learncamerarepair.com

 

[mau]

I'm aware of the manuals, but they don't deal with the T model as far as I can tell, only the standard Rolleiflex.
The mechanics are quite different

 

[BMbikerider]

These cameras are getting on for 60+ years old now so something has got to 'give' - eventually. I am not an advocate of DIY repairs on fine and possibly delicate machinery, but what struck me with the picture was the fine quality of engineering inside a Rollie body. It is a masterpiece and deserves to be returned to working order. Good luck.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I'm aware of the manuals, but they don't deal with the T model as far as I can tell, only the standard Rolleiflex.
The mechanics are quite different

https://ia600908.us.archive.org/5/items/RolleflexTLR/Rolleflex_TLR_text.pdf

pp. 238-249

Not that it is all that much help on actual repair, more just specs and setup on some areas.

 

[mau]

Thanks @Dan Daniel, I had somehow an incomplete version of that where the part I was interested in was missing.

Btw the last update on this is that today I had a hunch and tried to advance the film at the different shutter speeds. It works on every speed except 1/2 and 1 sec.
With this new piece of info I'm thinking maybe the shutter is also a bit sticky and needs some cleaning?
At the end of the day the shutter release causes that round pin to come down on the lever, so maybe a sticky shutter is causing the pin to come down too slowly

 

[mau]

New update. I'm now inclined to think the shutter might not be the culprit after all (which doesn't mean it's not sticky).

It's just barely noticeable in the video, but the lever that latches to the block has a two-step movement when the shutter is released: first it goes down a little bit and lies on the block waiting for the shutter to close, and then when the shutter closes it goes down a bit more and fully latches to the block.

So I'm thinking that at slow speeds, since the lever is spending some time idle against the block before coming down completely, friction becomes static instead of dynamic and the difference is enough to stop the movement afterwards.

 

[Dan Daniel]

This is seeming pretty darn sensitive! The T has always confused me. Rollei had systems all set with the Rolleicord and Rolleiflex and then they go and reinvent the wheel all over! Well, keep going. That lens is very very nice so it will be worth it.

 

[stan_1]

Have you ever solved that problem? I think I may be facing something similar.
In my case when I open the back, close it and wind to the first shot, that first shot works normally. But then I cannot wind on to the second shot. I've opened the front and cleaned the shutter (the slow speed gear and the self timer). I see that the lever that cocks the shutter doesn't fully spring back after firing. I can pull it back by hand with a little force, then the film advance works for the next shot.
I thought mayby the long spring which is in the shutter mechanism and pulls back that cocking ring has lost it's force, so I shortened it to increase tension, but that lever still won't get back to where it unlocks the winding mechanism. You think it's the same problem and I need to adjust that little block?

 

[stan_1]

So after a couple of hours this is what solved it for me:
the problem was for me most likely that the spring that pulls back that pin (pink circle) that cocks that lever (as you marked with red arrow) lost too much tension. So the tension wasn‘t enough to move that lever far enough.
I removed that spring (green arrow) and bent it to have more force. That solved it for me that the lever was not consistently caught on the square you marked with the red dot.
Another issue that occurred was that when rotating backwards after winding the film the winding wouldn‘t stop as it should. For that you just have to move that little pin up that you can see through a black window on the other side of the assembly (blue arrow). Hope this helps in case someone else encounters these problems.

 

[stan_1]

An update:
I have rewordked the shutter on the same camera, but after putting the front plate back on, the same problem reoccured. Taking the front plate off again and it worked (took me some hours to find that out). What I think was the problem is that the aperture pin was putting some pressure on the cocking ring (they are both located behind the synchro compur shutter). And that prevented that pin from travelling back all the way. What solved it for me was to bend the aperture pin outward a bit and not to screw on the front plate too tightly. Now works as it should. So you might want to try adjusting the winding mechanism with the front plate off and see if that works.

 

[mau]

Wow, thanks for the insight.
How did you open the front? As far as I know you need some sort of custom two-pin screwdriver to remove the flash bracket.

What fixed it for me was to detach the whole side plate from the body and give it a good clean, plus adjusting the position of the little square block.
However, that black cog that I'm holding with the index finger in the picture, which goes into the spool, for some reason is made of plastic on my model. I played around so much trying to fix the camera, that I ended up breaking two little teeth on it. There's no fix for it except replacing it. I did find a replacement part, and I'm sure it's exactly that one (spares have a code name, this one is 08072.00.0), but this one is made of metal. Turns out the diameter is something like 0.1mm larger, and it doesn't fit

Btw that little lever that you showed with the blue arrow gave me a big scare...I thought I had messed up, instead it was just the backward stop pin that got caught under the central block and was stuck there, not blocking the crank from winding backwards anymore. Thankfully moving the pin from the little window there is enough to fix it (big thank you to whoever at Rollei thought about cutting that little window back in the day). I found that happens pretty often when putting the side plate back on.

 

[Alex Varas]

For opening that retaining ring you need something as the photo. Or spanner wrench with the two pins really sturdy (not flexible).
Dimensions are:
Outer diameter 6mm
Thickness 0.6mm

About the broken cog… as I saw all T and Rolleimagic have same cog but 3.5F, Wide and Tele share the same, I think 2.8Fs as well. You might try to find one of them and see if they fit.
What serial number is your T? I remember the winding plate has two designs I think, small differences anyway.

 

[stan_1]

Luckily for me the ring on my camera on the flash socket was not fastened very tightly. I could unscrew it with two sharp pins if i remember correctly