Rollei Infrared ISO 200/400. Whaaaaaaat?

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pbromaghin

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I never noticed this before, but my most recent purchase of Rollei Infrared says it is ISO 200/24 - 400/27.

Whaaaaat?

Why can't they figure out what ISO their own film is?

When is it ISO 200/24?

When is it ISO 400/27?

Why?

What does this imply for the shooter? Do I have to bracket 4 shots for every scene - 200, one stop more light, ISO 400, one stop less light? Or can I just meter at 200 or 400 and take 2 shots adjusting 5 stops from each with a 720 filter?

Enquiring minds want to know.
 

Ivo Stunga

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It means that they are engaging in poor storytelling.
As it's respooled Aviphot 200 (200 here is for different contrast, useful for aerial surveillance purposes) in Rollei Analog packaging, the pictorial contrast sensitivity rating of is at around ISO 50-100. I tend to shoot it at 100 and even 200 when I want strong contrast.

400 is just underexposing it quite a lot. But that even stronger contrast and lack of deep shadow details can surely work some magic for contrasty IR shots.
 

lamerko

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This is an aerial surveillance film with extended sensitivity in the red range. Due to the specific conditions it is intended for, its speed rating is not according to the ISO standard we are used to, but according to EAFS. The official rating is in the range of 125 to 250. Besides the rating being according to a different standard, the target values for contrast and density are also not what we like. We definitely don't want that contrast...
I would shoot it as 200 ASA -5 or -6 stops depending on the scene with a 720 nm filter.
 

250swb

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I never noticed this before, but my most recent purchase of Rollei Infrared says it is ISO 200/24 - 400/27.

Whaaaaat?

Why can't they figure out what ISO their own film is?

When is it ISO 200/24?

When is it ISO 400/27?

Why?

What does this imply for the shooter? Do I have to bracket 4 shots for every scene - 200, one stop more light, ISO 400, one stop less light? Or can I just meter at 200 or 400 and take 2 shots adjusting 5 stops from each with a 720 filter?

Enquiring minds want to know.

There is more infrared light on a sunny day, so use 400 ISO if the sun is out to avoid over exposure and 200 ISO on a dull day.
 

koraks

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This is an aerial surveillance film with extended sensitivity in the red range. Due to the specific conditions it is intended for, its speed rating is not according to the ISO standard we are used to, but according to EAFS. The official rating is in the range of 125 to 250. Besides the rating being according to a different standard, the target values for contrast and density are also not what we like. We definitely don't want that contrast...
I would shoot it as 200 ASA -5 or -6 stops depending on the scene with a 720 nm filter.

Bingo

There is more infrared light on a sunny day, so use 400 ISO if the sun is out to avoid over exposure and 200 ISO on a dull day.

If you use film like this for IR, exposure would have to be 5-7 stops more than box speed because IR just doesn't do much. Consequently, the reason of the box speed confusion is not the amount of IR in the light. It's mostly related to the intended gamma as indicated above by @lamerko.

Moreover, it would be the other way around - on a cloudy day, the relative component of IR in the entire spectrum is more than on a sunny day:
1742893074416.png

(source)

The influence of IR on total exposure depends a bit on how you define IR; if you define it as anything above 700nm (where human visibility reaches virtually zero), it's a small part of the integral exposure; if you define it as >740nm (popular cutoff of IR filters for our purposes) it's just a sliver:
1742893321441.png

The yellow + red parts are maybe 25% of the integral exposure; that means effectively a difference between let's say EI200 and EI250 or so if you include or entirely exclude that part of the spectrum (which is a very different and much more extreme scenario than the more subtle relative attenuation of cloudy vs sunny!) The red part (>740nm) is something like 5% of the total exposure, so the effective impact on film speed between sunny & cloudy would effectively be negligible.

Hence, you can work out fairly easily that the IR difference between a sunny our a cloudy day would have only a very slight effect on total exposure, with the cloudy day resulting in a higher effective film speed than the sunny day, and none of this being a good explanation of an entire stop in film speed rating. There's a more problematic aspect to this proposition, and it's the fact that the relative distribution of spectral flux actually does not change all that much between cloudy & sunny conditions - grasping back on the spectral plot I've quoted before, the same article also shows a normalized plot for these conditions, which shows that the relative distribution is really virtually the same:
1742894165962.png

You could try to make a case for broad daylight vs. dusk/dawn, which would have more of an effect. However, that would make for an apples & oranges comparison as you'll be changing the entire spectral distribution and not just the IR part. For the same reason we don't use different ISO ratings for regular B&W film for broad daylight vs. early mornings & late evenings, we shouldn't do it here with a film that happens to have a little IR sensitivity.

For the real reason, refer to the datasheet here, specifically the curves shown below: https://www.agfa.com/specialty-products/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2017/06/AVIPHOT-PAN-200.pdf
1742892055586.png

Note how the effective speed is roughly 125 to 250...
1742892111511.png

...but that's for a gamma that's over 1.0, whereas for general photography, we generally aim at something like 0.6-0.7.

The reason for the optimistic speed rating of 200 (let alone 400) is therefore mostly due to a situation that's akin to 'push processing'; an aerial imaging scenario is effectively a low-contrast situation, so the film is developed to a high contrast to compensate for the low SBR (scene brightness range). The result is that the speed point is bumped a little, too (see HD curve family on page 5 of the datasheet; you can plot the ASA speed point in there and see how it moves a little).

Taken together, the rating of 250 is the best-case 'wind in the back, sun in your face' scenario for the film developed to the maximum gamma for its aerial imaging application, and the 400 rating is a marketing fudge factor added on top of it because hey, it looks good in the sales pitch and shucks, who gives a hoot anyway what speed it really is. Developed for a more usual gamma in regular photographic applications (visible spectrum), you can expect this film to reach no more than ca. ISO 100.
 
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BMbikerider

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I never noticed this before, but my most recent purchase of Rollei Infrared says it is ISO 200/24 - 400/27.

Whaaaaat?

Why can't they figure out what ISO their own film is?

When is it ISO 200/24?

When is it ISO 400/27?

Why?

What does this imply for the shooter? Do I have to bracket 4 shots for every scene - 200, one stop more light, ISO 400, one stop less light? Or can I just meter at 200 or 400 and take 2 shots adjusting 5 stops from each with a 720 filter?

Enquiring minds want to know.

IR is totally different to visible light and cannot be guaranteed to be the same wherever you are so they give the wide ISO range as a suggestion what it 'may' be. I have not used IR for perhaps 20 years or more when Kodak still produced their high speed IR.

I eventually worked out that over the year the IR radiation in UK could be more accurately assessed by varying the setting on the camera according to the month of the year. The Kodak speed rating was nominally 400iso but between November-February I usually rated it between 64 and 125iso. March to May 200 to 400iso. June through to September usually 400-800iso or more. October was always a problem so depending on the weather on the day 360-400iso.

These were not set in stone, and I realise they would probably not suit everyone's needs, but was a personal assessment on the day. It is just my experience which for me gave me a higher rate of success than adhering to the box film speed. (Up to about 50% being usable. Of course the assessment I used would not necessarily work elsewhere in the world because the IR available will vary significantly.

Where there was water involved in a landscape scene because water reflects very little IR, that was pure guesswork depending on the day, and working on exposure from previous pictures depending how they turned out. There is/was no 'set in stone' film speed it could be all over the place even on the same day
 

loccdor

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Mine works best at 100 (while developing for 200) for normal shooting and 6 for infrared. When using yellow/orange/red filters the factor seems to be less compensation than with other films.

I'm not a huge fan of it anymore because I've found lots of emulsion defects in it (widespread scratches, dots, mottling) from several sources including Rollei.
 

Ivo Stunga

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The IR difference between a sunny our a cloudy day would have only a very slight effect on total exposure

Looking at solar radiation graph I wanted to say the same - 750nm is at the edge of visual (red)/NIR part of EM spectrum and one should be able to use visible light measurements (exposure meter) for reference as current extended red/IR films don't do much beyond 750nm, leaving guesswork out of the equation.

Rainy days are different though as the water absorbs NIR light, needing longer exposures. Same goes with fog.
 
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Petrochemist

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IR film is sensitive to UV, visual light & near IR. The ratios of these change with conditions (& any filters you use).
You're light meter is generally just seeing visual light.

Their quoted range is an estimate of what will work in typical usage (probably with a R72 filter on the camera) and using visual light to judge the lighting. It would be possible to provide a fixed ISO that works with a dedicated IR only meter (I don;t know if anyone makes such a thing) but even here changing the filter in use (#25 red, #29 dark red, 720nm, 760nm... could all be used)
IIRC most IR film has little sensitivity above 800nm (IR converted digital goes to ~1000nm)

Shooting IR with film the rule has always been to bracket widely. I think I have sources that recommend +/- 4 stops, but 2 stops is more common.
Personally I take the easy route for my IR shooting & use converted digital cameras. Even with these where the metering can be done direct from the sensor it's a good idea to check exposure & reshoot adding exposure compensation if required.
 

Ivo Stunga

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IR film is sensitive to UV, visual light & near IR. The ratios of these change with conditions (& any filters you use).
You're light meter is generally just seeing visual light.
Isn't this irrelevant when you cut off everything below filter value? No UV and not much visual passes through say 715nm filter.
And no NIR sensitive film manufactured today goes beyond 750nm to my knowledge - so there's little value of using a filter that starts to let light though from a point where NIR film sensitivity dips. 715/720 is the sweetspot today with film - just enough to cut the overpowering visual off and to leave some NIR/deep red to make the exposure.
 
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Mine works best at 100 (while developing for 200) for normal shooting and 6 for infrared. When using yellow/orange/red filters the factor seems to be less compensation than with other films.

I'm not a huge fan of it anymore because I've found lots of emulsion defects in it (widespread scratches, dots, mottling) from several sources including Rollei.

My experience the same. Respooled some 120 rolls and used at ISO 6 with a 720 filter. Very happy with results.

For normal, usually between 80-100.


Marcelo
 

Petrochemist

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Isn't this irrelevant when you cut off everything below filter value? No UV and not much visual passes through say 715nm filter.
And no NIR sensitive film manufactured today goes beyond 750nm to my knowledge - so there's little value of using a filter that starts to let light though from a point where NIR film sensitivity dips. 715/720 is the sweetspot today with film - just enough to cut the overpowering visual off and to leave some NIR/deep red to make the exposure.

The UV portion would be irrelevant, but if your metering for visual & recording IR the changing ratio there is very relevant.
I think there are stocks of out of date IR film available that go beyond 750nm, but such options have always been very limited for film.

I have successfully used a 950nm filter on digital (even with a camera that had not been converted, the Pentax K100 does have a rather weak internal hot mirror). However the spectral cut off with 950nm filters is however much more gradual than other long pass filters, so perhaps this does not truly reflect filters near the top edge of film sensitivity.
 

Sirius Glass

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I never noticed this before, but my most recent purchase of Rollei Infrared says it is ISO 200/24 - 400/27.

Whaaaaat?

Why can't they figure out what ISO their own film is?

When is it ISO 200/24?

When is it ISO 400/27?

Why?

What does this imply for the shooter? Do I have to bracket 4 shots for every scene - 200, one stop more light, ISO 400, one stop less light? Or can I just meter at 200 or 400 and take 2 shots adjusting 5 stops from each with a 720 filter?

Enquiring minds want to know.

It has always performed well at ISO 400 for me.
 
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MCB18

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I have shot plenty of NOS Aviphot 200 at 100 ISO and it worked fine for me, 6-12 ISO for 720nm IR. Although that film is a bit old so it’s possible it’s lost some sensitivity. I’ve shot Aviphot 80 (as FN-64) at ISO 12 with a 720nm filter and it works great! I still haven’t shot Foto-100 (which I believe is fresh Aviphot 200) in IR yet, although I really should.
 
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For those who shoot Rollei IR film with an R72 filter…do any of you self develop?

I used to shoot the film by metering for ISO 12 and then got it processed by my local lab at box speed of 400.

Now I’m starting to develop my own film at home again after many years and I want to develop the Rollei IR film myself. The problem is I’ve started shooting it metered at ISO 6 and want to develop it based on ISO 200 (Instead of metering at 12 and developing at 400 as indicated previously).

I use Xtol diluted 1:1 and for this the Massive Dev chart doesn’t show the development time for ISO 200. It only shows development times for ISO 50 and 400. Do I just split the difference into thirds and go from there (thirds because of the diff of 3 stops)? How long do you develop for at ISO 200?
 
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Sirius Glass

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For those who shoot Rollei IR film with an R72 filter…do any of you self develop?

I used to shoot the film by metering for ISO 12 and then got it processed by my local lab at box speed of 400.

Now I’m starting to develop my own film at home again after many years and I want to develop the Rollei IR film myself. The problem is I’ve started shooting it metered at ISO 6 and want to develop it based on ISO 200 (Instead of metering at 12 and developing at 400 as indicated previously).

I use Xtol diluted 1:1 and for this the Massive Dev chart doesn’t show the development time for ISO 200. It only shows development times ISO 100 and 400. Do I just split/halve the difference for development time? How long do you develop for at ISO 200?

Yes using a Jobo processor and replenished XTOL exposed at ISO 400 and the exposure is adjusted by the filter factor.
 

MCB18

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For those who shoot Rollei IR film with an R72 filter…do any of you self develop?

I used to shoot the film by metering for ISO 12 and then got it processed by my local lab at box speed of 400.

Now I’m starting to develop my own film at home again after many years and I want to develop the Rollei IR film myself. The problem is I’ve started shooting it metered at ISO 6 and want to develop it based on ISO 200 (Instead of metering at 12 and developing at 400 as indicated previously).

I use Xtol diluted 1:1 and for this the Massive Dev chart doesn’t show the development time for ISO 200. It only shows development times for ISO 50 and 400. Do I just split the difference into thirds and go from there (thirds because of the diff of 3 stops)? How long do you develop for at ISO 200?

Look at times for superpan 200. Same film.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Look at times for superpan 200. Same film.

Yes, exactly the same film. I've tested them both. My XTol replenished time is 15 min. MDC's 1+1 time of 14 min will work fine.
 
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Look at times for superpan 200. Same film.

Yes, exactly the same film. I've tested them both. My XTol replenished time is 15 min. MDC's 1+1 time of 14 min will work fine.

This is so wild to me…that Rollei brands this film as IR and Superpan. Someone in another thread wrote that they believe it’s also the same as Rollei Retro 400.

I didn’t know this was a thing that film brands did.
 

Ivo Stunga

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But wait, there's more! Rollei Retro 400S too is the same film!


There used to be Aviphot 400. It's gone now. Rollei Analog doesn't make any film.
They repackage and resell films made by film manufacturers. Source films are Aviphot (Agfa-Gevaert) and Kentmere (Harman).

So today Rollei uses Aviphot 200 (Superpan 200, Retro 400S, Infrared) and Aviphot 80 (Rollei RPX 25 and Retro 80S) and pretends like nothing has changed, because business.

Their RPX 100 and 400 is Kentmere under the hood. At a premium.
 
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Sanug

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Rollei Paul + Reinhold 640 seems to be a respooled Kentmere 400 to me. I just had a bad experience with light leaks by a faulty canister.

There is a difference between Superpan 200 and Rollei Infrared in 120. The Superpan is confectioned by Foma and may show the known issues. Rollei Infrared is confectioned by Harman. More expensive, but worth the money due to the perfect quality.
 

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I've used this film in 135 and 120, both for IR and regular light photography. I've found that it gives constrasty but nice negatives when shot at 400, developed accordingly, in regular light. Not a film I'd choose to use in bright sun with a lot of contrast in the scene to begin with unless I was shooting at 200 (and developing accordingly).

When I've used it as an IR film with a 720 filter, the camera I use (Yashica Minister III) has the filter over the light sensor so I simply set the ISO on the camera to 400. If I were using another meter I'd add 6 stops to my measured exposure. Again, it performs well.

As this is a repurposed aviation film, the "ISO" on the box is a suggestion. And the film can be made to work well for regular photography at 200-400 depending on your preferences and the scenes you're photographing.
 
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This is so wild to me…that Rollei brands this film as IR and Superpan. Someone in another thread wrote that they believe it’s also the same as Rollei Retro 400.

I didn’t know this was a thing that film brands did.

Rollei is just the brand name, which is owned by RCP Technik in Germany. Maco Direct manages the manufacture and distribution of the Rollei films (to the best of my knowledge).
The Rollei branded films are typically coated by Agfa-Gevaert or ORWO (Filmotec) depending on the emulsion, but the Rollei RPX films are manufactured by Harman in the UK and are either Kentmere or “closely related to” Kentmere emulsions. (I’ve compared Kentmere 100 and RPX 100 and my observations suggest they are the same material)
Many of the films sold under the Rollei brand name - particularly the films discussed here under the umbrella of “near infrared” are based on the Aviphot aerial surveillance films from Agfa-Gevaert.
In this era, it’s not at all unusual to find that many films are simply a rebranding of a film made/sold by one of the few actual manufacturers. Remember, there are only a handful of companies that actually make film - Kodak, Harman (Ilford, Kentmere), Fujifilm, Foma, Adox, Lucky, Ferrania, Orwo, Agfa-Gevaert, and InovisCoat (although the current state of InovisCoat is unclear, but it appears that around 2022, InovisCoat was absorbed into Orwo and now operates as a property of Orwo).
So bear in mind when choosing from the scores of film brands that they all come from one of a small group of manufacturers who are contracted to make films under a variety of brand names. Knowing who makes a film can be useful - as someone said earlier, why buy Rollei RPX 100 when the same film can be had as Kentmere100?
 
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