Rodinal Minimal?

[Shawn Dougherty]

Thomas - a few details if you don't mind:
Do you presoak and how long?
How long is your initial agitation, and how "violent"?
I ask because I have tried many combinations of stand, semi-stand, etc with Rodinal and 120 Tri-x and have never been able to avoid surge effects on the edges, and not all frames, no consistency except that it is always at the top of the reel. I even tried doing a roll in an old 4x5 Kodak hard rubber tank just letting it (film on the reel) sit in the bottom in total darkness to remove the ss tank from the process.
Do you ever have surge effects?

As far as Tri-X 120 (400version), I've found the following a good starting point:
Stainless reel in a single tank, 5 minute presoak, 1:100Rodinal (5ml in 500ml) for 30 minutes. Gentle agitation (mostly up and down) for the first minute. Then a second round of agitation for a total of 30 seconds at the halfway point. (Both rounds of agitation include about 10 seconds of beating the tank on the sink to release possible air bubbles). A quick water stop (pour in and shake for 10 seconds) followed by a standard fix.

I'm sure Thomas will offer up some great advice as well. Hope this helps! All the best. Shawn

 

[Uhner]

I have had problems with surge effects and what I believe is bromide drag when using Rodinal 1+50 and minimal agitation techniques.

I have never encountered any similar problems, or in fact any problems at all, when stand developing or using minimal agitation with Rodinal 1+100 or 1+200.

I use a similar procedure as Shaun when developing TX for normal contrast scenes. The difference is that I normally use two agitation cycles nowadays.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

I use a similar procedure as Shaun when developing TX for normal contrast scenes. The difference is that I normally use two agitation cycles nowadays.

When I develop sheet film, I always use the the two aggitation cycle (three counting the initial) Uhner mentions. I've experienced some sort of bromide drag when I didn't. BUT, that was only with sheet film. With roll film I've done it both ways with great success. In theory, as I understand it, the extra agitation cycle may increase highlight density slightly as you're refreshing the exhausted developer in the highlights.

I'm still learning the ins and outs of this process but the beauty is I've gotten very nice, printable negatives with almost every try... It's great to read other peoples experiences in this and other recent threads.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hi George,

I do a presoak that equals the amount of time it take to get all my chemistry ready to develop. Usually about 3 minutes. I change water once, for no particular reason other than I love to watch the color of the dyes...
Initial agitation is 90 seconds. I roll the tank on the floor after a couple torso agitations.
I use a plastic Paterson tank with plastic reels. I do three rolls at a time at the 1+200 dilution and I let it sit for an hour. That's when I shoot with toy cameras and pinholes. When I shoot with my roll film back and 4x5 I let it sit for 45 minutes. I don't know if it actually makes a difference, but I believe it works out for me, so it's all good.
Sometimes air bells forming at the top of the reels are mistaken for 'surge' effects. Do you have a negative you can scan and post to show us how it looks? Or can you describe it in detail?

I hope that helps.

- Thomas

Thomas - a few details if you don't mind:
Do you presoak and how long?
How long is your initial agitation, and how "violent"?
I ask because I have tried many combinations of stand, semi-stand, etc with Rodinal and 120 Tri-x and have never been able to avoid surge effects on the edges, and not all frames, no consistency except that it is always at the top of the reel. I even tried doing a roll in an old 4x5 Kodak hard rubber tank just letting it (film on the reel) sit in the bottom in total darkness to remove the ss tank from the process.
Do you ever have surge effects?

 

[coriana6jp]

Thanks for the reply, Gary. So no problems with fog when it's in for that long? An hour is about the limit for me with the 1+200 solution. Longer and I see slight fogging, and densities also seem to increase if I go longer than an hour. Perhaps it's a water/temperature thing.


- Thomas

Sorry about my late reply. Honestly, I havent noticed any real increase in base fog. Even if it has increased, it hasnt caused me any problems in printing.

Tonight I tried a dilution 1:400 and while I got some results, but think the dilution was just took weak. But I will try again tomorrow with a test roll that I took.

Gatry

 

[Lee L]

Tonight I tried a dilution 1:400 and while I got some results, but think the dilution was just took weak. But I will try again tomorrow with a test roll that I took.

Gatry

The question isn't really about dilution, it's about the quantity of developer available to the film, i.e. how many ml of Rodinal concentrate it takes to develop a roll of film properly. 1:400 could be 0.625 ml Rodinal in 250 ml of water, or it could be 2.5 ml Rodinal in 1 liter of water. Over time all of the Rodinal in either volume would be available to the film, but one would contain less developer.

My recall was that Agfa used to recommend 10 ml of concentrate for a 36 exposure roll of 35mm or a sheet of 8x10, but I could be wrong. My experience and that of others that I know is that 2.5 ml per roll works fine and can easily get you to normal contrast with nearly all films. My unsubstantiated guess is that you'll start getting an inability to develop to higher gammas and exhaustion in the area between 1 and 2 ml per roll.

Just for reference and clarity, I mostly use Rodinal with fine grain, low speed films.

Lee

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Lee, of course you are right. Both me and Gary have divulged the specific volumes of Rodinal and water to clarify that in previous posts.

2.5ml to 500ml water is as low as I've gone so far for one film of 120. When I have a test roll, I will try less, 1:300 in 500ml water for one film. That should come out to 1 and 2/3 (1.67) ml to 500ml water. I'll probably end up mixing 2ml to 600ml and use 500ml, because it's easier to measure. I would not be surprised if it worked out well.

- Thomas

 

[dancqu]

The question isn't really about dilution, it's about the
quantity of developer available to the film, ...kLee

And how much is available when 2.5ml with 1000ml
is compared with 2.5ml with 500ml or 2.5 ml with 250ml?
If stand developing for same time and agitation I'd say it
is certain the higher dilution delivers Less developing
agent. Dan

 

[Lee L]

My point was simply that Gatry (coriana6jp) stated a dilution ratio, not a total volume, and not a quantity of concentrate, so we really don't know how his answer relates to the question in the original post.

Of course dilution, quantity of developer, and agitation all play a role. But given sufficient time and agitation for a given quantity of developer concentrate to reach the film, the question is still basically "how much Rodinal concentrate is the minimum needed to process a roll of film"? All I'm saying is that useful contributions toward answering that question require full information.

Lee

 

[George Collier]

Thomas - sorry about my late reply also, had to find this scan. This is a contact sheet I did last year:
Trix120 , Rodinal 1:50 72F, 3 min presoak, 30sec agitation, then stand for 18min, agitating 30 sec every 6 minutes. I made 420ml of developer to allow enough room for the solution to move around during agitation, and put a spacer in the tank to keep it from shifting up and down during agitations - I've had surge from this before.)
Looking back, greater dilution (1:200, as you suggest), with more initial agitation (I think Sandy King recommends 2 min with Pyrocat), then maybe no more intermittent agitations might be better.
I just banged some shots off to create an exposed roll. The bottom of the reel is to the left. When I load the reel, I take the film completely off of the paper backing, and lead into the real with the taped end. The beginning of the roll is the bottom left, then up and over, so the bottom exposures are #1, #5, & #9.
You can see varying amounts of surge on the right side of nearly all images, and even on the left (bottom of the reel) on 3, 5, and 6.
I had similar results with normal agitation (beginning for 30 sec, then 5-10 sec every 45 seconds) for total of 12 minutes.
Also, I've had none of these problems ever with HC110, stand or normal.

 

[dancqu]

Of course dilution, quantity of developer, and agitation all play a role.
But given sufficient time and agitation for a given quantity of developer concentrate to reach the film, the question is still basically "how much Rodinal concentrate is the minimum needed to process a roll of film"

How about One milliliter? That with a 500ml solution volume and
constant or near constant agitation. Two milliliters has shown
itself to be enough while 'standing' still. Dan