Rodinal and R09. Similarities and differences

[Fotohuis]

Yes...but they are german...they don't know

oeps, you are really bad.......


Wir haben es nicht....... ah ja, das war einmal!

 

[laz]

Wow! In an hour and a half this thread went from 2 pages to 5! I'm amazed how any question about Rodinal on APUG does this!

I guess this is a question best posed in the Lounge.
-B

Make that 6 pages!

 

[jandc]

I haven`t seen any clear instructions at all for R 09 other than Calbe suggesting to dilute 1:40 as standard along with other dilutions. I can`t find any starting point developing times hence my suggestion for using as if it were regular Rodinal and then making adjustments to times and dilutions as necessary. You have to start some where and find what works best through trial and error. If you know of any recommended developing times for popular film brands, then please divulge your information.
Rodinal`s not my stuff but there are many who do like it.

I sounded to me like you were advocating just using the Rodinal times with R09 and then try and compare the results in an answer to the topic of this thread.

I now see that you were just tyring to form a baseline from which to derive accurate times. This makes sense.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[modafoto]

Wow! In an hour and a half this thread went from 2 pages to 5! I'm amazed how any question about Rodinal on APUG does this!

I guess this is a question best posed in the Lounge.
-B

Make that 6 pages!

You are just trying to make it to 1000 soon

...just as I am about to hit 2000 in a few posts...OOPS...this is another post towards the goal.

"Rodinal - Makes people talk!"

 

[titrisol]

Interestingly enough in my country when everything was moved to metric things are still sold by gallons (4 l instead of those weird 3.785) and by "Quintal" (50 kg instead of 100lb) and everyone is happy

The only excpetion is gasoline.. because the fuel pumps are american :?

ml versus gallon, celcius versus fahrenheit

Strange world.............

 

[Fotohuis]

Well the Agfa (Photo) Rodinal times were also not very accurate in the past.........

Robert

 

[titrisol]

EFKE 25 works great 10 min Rodinal 1+100
So I assume 4.5-5 minutes at 1+50 should do it.

I just spoke to Mirko and he agrees that the time he listed was too short to achieve full film speed. The 4.5 minute time yields about EI 12-20. So he is revising his to agree with our 8 minute number. Of course with Efke 25 it is best to err on the side of under development so that the contrast doesn't get out of hand.

 

[jelke]

there was a interesting article on photo.net about rodinal and r09

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=002ZLC

 

[Fotohuis]

I am just busy with a real comparing test with Agfa Rodinal and AM50/Neofin Blau and this Efke25/Adox/UP25 film from Croatia.

But thanks for your data Titrisol!

I am measuring back with a TRD-Z densitometer from Heiland and I am also using his TAS filmprocesor (very low agitation, speed 1).

best regards,

Robert

 

[Fotohuis]

Hi, Jelke from also the Netherlands, it's almost a chatroom on this threat....

Thanks for your hint. (photo.net)

Gaan de Fomapan 200 films nu goed??

Robert

 

[jelke]

dear robert...

thanks for your response; the fomafilms are doing great (geen krasjes meer)

 

[Fotohuis]

Great to hear that.

Bye the way: Do YOU need Rodinal...........

 

[modafoto]

Do YOU need Rodinal...

Everybody does

 

[Fotohuis]

Lots of my friends have given up photography and gone digital

Are you still my friend???

(Das haben wir nicht gewusst!)
sorry, normally I have this mood on Friday :confused:

 

[Gerald Koch]

It has been mentioned on this thread that R09 is not as concentrated as Rodinal. According to the MSDS, the current version of Rodinal is made with potassium hydroxide. Potassium salts are more active photographically than their sodium counterparts. If R09 is made with sodium hydroxide, as was the original Rodinal, it would be expected to be slower in its action even if it contained the same amount of p-aminophenol. I have a formula for a Rodinal type developer that explicitly states that for a faster acting developer use potassium hydroxide rather the sodium hydroxide.

Therefore, R09 may not be weaker but merely slower in its action.

 

[Lee L]

If R09 is made with sodium hydroxide, as was the original Rodinal, it would be expected to be slower in its action even if it contained the same amount of p-aminophenol. I have a formula for a Rodinal type developer that explicitly states that for a faster acting developer use potassium hydroxide rather the sodium hydroxide.

Therefore, R09 may not be weaker but merely slower in its action.

My bottle of Calbe R09 lists potassium hydroxide and 4-aminophenol on the label, but doesn't mention sodium hydroxide. I don't have the MSDS.

My personal test (a link to it in my earlier post) of both developers at 1:100 dilution with Efke KB25 shows Rodinal to give slightly more film speed and a slightly higher gamma under those test conditions. I haven't tried the Calbe R09 at a slightly longer time to see if the film speed and gamma both come up to match Rodinal.

Lee

 

[Wayne]

So, who is this Calbe fellow anyway? We dont know much about him here in the states. Would you let him date your daughter? Is he reliable? Can we count on him or will he just let us down? How do we know he is in it for the long haul? Why should we believe he is any more solvent than his comrade Agfa?

 

[Christian Kolinski]

So, who is this Calbe fellow anyway? We dont know much about him here in the states. Would you let him date your daughter? Is he reliable? Can we count on him or will he just let us down? How do we know he is in it for the long haul? Why should we believe he is any more solvent than his comrade Agfa?

Calbe is a small town at the river Saale in east Germany. During the time of the GDR the chemical department of the ORWO (Original Wolfen, east German Agfa) was located there. After the German reunion Orwo went bankrupt, but the chemical department was sold and stayed in business. They still produce according to the old ORWO recipes (which are about the same as the pre-war Agfa ones).

Their homepage:
http://www.calbe-chemie.de/english/frameset.htm

As they do a lot more than developers - they do quite a bit for other companies, especially medical and other chemical companies - they seem to do quite well.

Christian

 

[Gerald Koch]

My bottle of Calbe R09 lists potassium hydroxide and 4-aminophenol on the label, but doesn't mention sodium hydroxide.

Thanks, I didn't have a copy of the MSDS and was working from the claim one hears that R09 is made from the original Agfa formula. According to Elie Schneour (who worked for Agfa for many years) Rodinal was made with sodium hydroxide.

 

[Fotohuis]

From their NEWS:

Taking into consideration this, our company paved the way for further diversification into
neighbouring technologically compatible areas of chemical production. With this strategic move
the company continues to strengthen its position as a supplier of economically viable and effective turnkey solutions for its clients.

In order to elaborate this, since 01.01.2005 company has changed its name from
Calbe Fotochemie GmbH to Calbe Chemie GmbH.

So they went more away from photochemicals........
Also I don 't see any production of raw material para-amino phenol. But maybe they also have Bayer as supplier for this stuff.

Further rests Foma, a real photographical company since 1921. They are located in Hradec Kralové, the Czech Republic. http://www.foma.cz Na shledanou!

best regards,

Robert

 

[jandc]

Not to "put out garbage" as you said, here some differences:

Rodinal is bottled under inert gas atmosphere, wich means it doesn't start ageing (e.g.: change color) till you open it.

R09 is pitch black bought new.

Second: at least one batch of the bottels used for R09 dissolved themselve and haven't been fully air-tight, speeding up ageing of R09. Some where really bad quality, cracking open at the seam near the cap rather easy.

That's a simple reason why Rodinal is said to last longer than R09: Less contact with oxygen means longer shelf life. When Rodinal is stored unopend theres _no_ oxygen to react with. While there is enough to turn R09 black.

See my point?

Christian

Here's the point as you are perfectly aware. Your post was as follows:

"Well, if you compare the bottles Rodinal ships in and those R09 is, you may find a quick answer to why R09 won't last as long as Rodinal."

Essentially claiming in some sort of dramatic way that if someone picks up a bottle of R09 they will see the difference. This of course is complete garbage.

Now you come back with stories of R09 bottles that mystically vaporize and self destruct. Even if there were some defective bottles at some point this is a one time manufacturing defect. Trying to characterize a one time defect as a characteristic of the developer is garbage. We've sold quite a bit of R09 over the years and have never seen a leaking or self destructing bottle.

You are right, R09 is pitch black when you get it. The small amount of air in the bottle reacts and turns it black. When the oxygen runs out the reaction stops. It doesn't just go on forever in a sealed bottle. So the R09 is stable in this nice black state. Rodinal is packaged under inert gas to make it look pretty in the nice white bottle they use. I remember when Rodinal came in the amber glass bottles and looked pretty dark. I guess that Agfa Rodinal didn't have the staying power of todays version either? Both developers are stable in the bottle and will last a long time..

Then you post this:

"Yes, although this discussion is on a "20 vs. 40 years of shelf life" level. Rodinal/R09 needs a really, really long time till it's unusable."

So you admit that your initial post was really bogus and bottom feeding because obviously someone isn't going to pick up a bottle of R09 and see that it is only a 20 year bottle instead of a 40 year bottle.

My only question to myself is why as I'm sitting in Berlin am I wasting my time on such absurdity?

 

[Wayne]

Just for the record, I had an Agfa bottle self destruct when I squeezed the air out of it. SEveral years later it was found empty, having leaked out a slight crease in the bottle. OK, may I helped it self-destruct, but there you have it anyway.

 

[Christian Kolinski]

Essentially claiming in some sort of dramatic way that if someone picks up a bottle of R09 they will see the difference. This of course is complete garbage.

Now you come back with stories of R09 bottles that mystically vaporize and self destruct. Even if there were some defective bottles at some point this is a one time manufacturing defect. Trying to characterize a one time defect as a characteristic of the developer is garbage. We've sold quite a bit of R09 over the years and have never seen a leaking or self destructing bottle.

My only question to myself is why as I'm sitting in Berlin am I wasting my time on such absurdity?

The question of JON@jb-ci was why Rodinal has a reputation of better shelf live than R09.

A simple answer is: because Calbe ruined (a bit harsh) or better damaged theirs by useing not so well made bottles. I wasn't the only one who had trouble with them, I could point you to several sources (in german...) of people having the same trouble. So it wasn't a one-time thing that happened only to me...

And would JON@jb-ci get the same type of bottle I got he really would have seen.

I _never_ said R09 was a bad developer, but the bottles it was delivered in were crap, at least some time ago (I'd be happy to see better ones. If they now use the same as the Adofix I bought from Mirko some time ago they have learned, same construction but way better craftmanship).

And is the reputation damaged you'll have a very hard way of fixing it. Agfa for exampe was never able to fully recover from the Color Paper Type 3 desaster of the early 80s (you know, the one loosing blue after a few month).

And the question I ask myself: I pointed out that the problem is the bottle and _not_ R09 as chemical. Why do you insinst I said something against R09 as a developer?

Christian