Rodinal 10 ml, myth or true?

[Juergen]

My first post at APUG Anyway, here it goes.

I acquired a small ss Kindermann tank that only holds about 275 ml of solution. If I want to use it to develop in Rodinal, diluted 1+50, it means I get 260 of working solution of which 5 ml is the actual Rodinal developer. Some people claim you need at least 10 ml of Rodinal in order for it to work properly. Is that a myth, or is it true?

Up until now I always used a Paterson tank that could easily hold over 500 ml of solution so the 10 ml 'rule' was not an issue with Rodinal (diluted 1+50). Since I prefer the Kindermann tank, I'd love to use it with Rodinal 1+50 but that means I can only use 5 ml of Rodinal. Can it be done succesfully?

Your help is highly appreciated!

 

[Ian Grant]

A minimum quantity is true because too little developing agents leads to exaustion and some extreme compensation/under-development.

However a minimum figure of a minimum of around 6ml in 300 ie 1:50 is more realistic. Welcome to APUG BTW.

Ian

 

[df cardwell]

Rodinal will generally fully develop most films at a 1+200 - 1+300 ml solution.

IN FACT it develops, given enough time, to the same curve shape as 1+25 and 1+50.
Simply diluting the film doesn't change a thing. What IS a myth (or rather magical thinking) is COMPENSATION.

But better than asking what will happen, try it yourself. Assume that for every dilution, there is a correct time... and find it.

d

 

[mablo]

Myth. I regularly soup my film in 450ml tank with ~5ml of Rodinal. Even less than that it works all right.

 

[ic-racer]

I use 10ml, but many, many people use less and would say they have good results.

My personal opinion, based on experience and some related testing, is that if you don't have enough Rodinal in the tank you lose speed or shadow detail. My personal comparisons of, say T-max film in T-max developer and Rodinal (10ml/8x10 area) show a speed loss in the Rodinal (this is only about 1/3 stop, though). My untested-opinion is that the speed loss is greater with less Rodinal in the tank.

Having said that, I'd try the 5ml and see how it works for you.

 

[modafoto]

I do 1+50 a lot with 6 ml. in the tank. No problems there.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

I used to use 3.75 ml in 8 oz water and never had a problem.

I think they may have a point though of 10 ml being correct because the gamma they test to is so high the negatives can`t be printed by any normal means. Perhaps 10 ml is needed to get that high reliably without exhaustion effects.

Then one must also consider if there is a roll of snow scenes or perhaps a series of copy document which will stress the developer more.

For these application, 10 ml might be correct.

 

[Tom A]

My standard dilution for most film is 1+100 with 5 ml in the tank. No problem.

Tom

 

[takef586]

I normally put 15 ml of Rodinal in a 900ml tank (1:60) for 4 35mm films, so it works out 3.75 ml of Rodinal per film. I bet, I could go easily down to 3ml per film. For your guide, I develop Tri X for 15 mins, 30sec continuous agitation, and then 2 inversions every 3 minutes.

 

[2F/2F]

IME, myth. I have used as little as 2 mL per roll.

 

[P C Headland]

I almost always use 1+100, which results in 6ml for my 120 tank, and 4ml for my 35mm tank. I've also done a couple of 4x5 sheets with 2ml in the Paterson Orbital.

 

[thebdt]

Myth... you might be interested in looking up "stand development" (or "semi-stand") using Rodinal. It takes awhile, but is very no-muss-no-fuss.

 

[Steve Smith]

I would say myth. If there is a minimum, it would be a percentage of solution, not a finite amount irrespective of total volume.


Steve.

 

[mono]

I keep to the "myth": I use 10 ml Rodinal per film as suggested by AGFA, so 10 ml Rodinal and 500 ml water= 510 ml (or aequivalent to 1+50) for 1 roll of 35mm or one roll of 120.
It works for me because I am used to it.

 

[Ian Grant]

It's worth bearing in mind that by the time Rodinal is used at 1+100 the developer concentration is close that of Beutler, FX1/2. Ilford Hyfin, Kodak HDD.

Both Kodak and Ilford recommended using a minimum of 600ml of developer for 35mm & 120 films, in fact both came in sachets to make 600ml, it's not specifically the actually dilution that's the issue rather the minimum amount of developing agent needed per film before the level of exhaustion prevents further and full development of the highlights, which is what Ilford, Kodak, Agfa etc call compensation, the compression of the highlights,

Of course people make use of this compression in techniques like Stand development, but it's due more to the high dilution than low or lack of agitation and there are also specific compensating developers such as Windisch which work the same way.

Agfa's recommendation of a minimum volume of Rodinal per film is/was based on films having full development, once a highly dilute Rodinal solution 1+100 - 1+200starts to exhaust no amount of extra development time will give the same film/developmentcurve as Rodinal used between 1+25 & 1+50

Ian

 

[Soeren]

I also have used as little as 3ml/film with good results. 18ml for 6 rolls of Neopan 1600 in Jobo. Whether the dilution is 1:25 or 1:200 doesn't matter, its the amount of developer per film that counts.
Best regards

 

[luxikon]

If I develop APX100 in Rodinal 1+100 I go down to 3ml/film as well with good results.

Klaus

 

[fschifano]

I've never tried using less than 6 ml of Rodinal in a 1+50 ratio to develop a single roll of 35 mm film in a small tank. That seems to work ok regardless of how much silver needs to be reduced. I don't think I'd care to try using less than that. If I wanted a higher dilution ratio, I'd use a larger tank and more water but never less developer.

 

[Steve Smith]

Most of the time, most of the developer is just filling up the gaps between the active developer on the surfce of the film and the inside of the tank.


Steve.

 

[RobertV]

10ml/135-36 or 120 roll film is the minimum according the Agfa Rodinal manual. I spoke years ago with a product specialist from Agfa while he explained me that 5-6ml is the real minimum for a regular development. Going under this minimum the result depends on the amount black and white on the negative. So it can be non-reproducible.

Best regards,

Robert

(Dutch Agfa (Rodinal) supplier)

 

[Roger Thoms]

260ml working solution with 5 ml of Rodinal is fine.

Roger

 

[ic-racer]

It certainly is TRUE that 10ml/8x10 is recommended by the manufacturer.

It is also TRUE that exhausted developers cause a loss of speed.

If one is interested in the effects of exhausted developer on speed, you can start by looking here:

http://dmfr.birjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/2/80

 

[pentaxuser]

At least two kinds of tanks for 35mm film, namely Durst and Jobo only hold 250mls which would mean that if 10ml is min then anything above 1:25 isn't possible and yet one of the benefits of Rodinal is the ability to vary dilutions. Of course it may be that neither company saw it as beneficial to make a 35mm tank to cater for Rodinal users at bigger dilutions but I'd doubt this.

I forget what dilution I used with Rodinal as it is a long time since I used it( I wasn't a fan) in the Durst tank but I suspect it was at least 1+50 and the negs were fine if more than a little grainy for my liking.

pentaxuser

 

[fschifano]

I guess that makes a case for getting a larger tank for when you want to use very dilute developers. Of course, that eliminates your being able to use the Jobo processor. Maybe that's not such a bad thing. Rodinal tends to oxidize pretty quickly once diluted, and the constant agitation of the Jobo machine will only hasten that.

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

One very important consideration is that when small amounts, around 3 to 6mm, of Rodinal are used, accuracy of measurement becomes critical.