Rise/shift the same as raising the camera or relying in lens geometry distortion?

Vaughn

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It took me many years of using a view camera before I realized that pointing my camera up (or down) and making both standards vertical was the same as front rise (or fall). I was just using a different starting point in creating the image on the GG where pointing the camera up or down, or on the level, is an element of composition to be used. But a lot of this was driven by learning to photograph in the chaos under the redwoods. None of my images for years had horizon lines...

Camera pointed down, allowing the trees to slightly flare outwards not all the way corrected with back tilt (159mm lens on 8x10. pt/pd print). The camera lens is about 30 feet above the forest floor, camera on on top to two criss-crossed fallen redwoods. The Boys, Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park, CA.
 

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xkaes

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And if you don't get the lines "correct" when the picture was taken, you can always "correct" them under the enlarger.
 

Vaughn

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And if you don't get the lines "correct" when the picture was taken, you can always "correct" them under the enlarger.
A little tougher to do with contact prints...

But one of the enjoyments of view cameras is the view on the ground glass. Depending on the circumstances, one often has the time to work with the image on the GG. One can see how the 3D world translates into 2D and can see the changes the various movements make in the image.
 
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grat

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Don't you mean "raising" the lens?

In the case of a tall building, that you're at the base of, sure. Of course, if you're in a tall building or hill, looking down at another structure, you might want to "drop" or "lower" the lens. The goal is still to alter the field of view so as to maintain parallel lines.

I used "shift" as a somewhat generic term for a lateral/vertical movement that keeps the lens and film plane parallel. Similarly, "tilt" covers both "tilt" and "swing", as to me, it's revolving the lens around an axis relative to the film plane.

I realize it's less precise, but it's preferable to "when raising/lowering/shifting right/shifting left, while maintaining a parallel relationship between the plane of sharp focus and the plane of the light sensitive medium contained within the light-tight box...". But of course, that's for the generic case-- for specific details, "I used 1cm of rise, 2cm of left shift, with a few degrees of forward tilt when taking this image", obviously the distinction makes more sense.
 
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Helge

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Ok this made it click for me.
The first shot was a very good example of how and why to use rise with a normal lens.
When shooting with other formats, my initial instinct would be to just move back a bit, or a lot, and/or use a tele lens, to get everything in frame and still keep the camera level.
But of course that is far from always possible. You change the composition (however slightly) and you don't always have the option of physically moving further back.
Here it is only a little bit of the building that is cut off at the top. And that is easily corrected.
I was imagining something more dramatic, which is of course also possible under other circumstances and with other focal lengths.


Doremus, your long and well written post was not in vain. I read it and enjoyed it, as I'm sure many others will do, but it just didn't really give an example that made me understand.

As in the edit, it's a macro lens. Didn't think of that, even if I have Minolta swing bellows.
 
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AgX

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Don't you mean "raising" the lens?

I understand "shift" as a superior term, subsuming both, lateral as vertical shift. Think of "tilt and shift" lenses.

When the terms "rise" and "fall" are used, then "shift" likely refers just to a lateral shift. It all depends on context.
Likely here too.
 

xkaes

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In many instances using the term "shift" doesn't make a difference as to direction, but in this particular case of a vertical subject, it makes a difference. Here, "rise" is what needs to be clear -- not just any old "shift".
 

Sirius Glass

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Raise is up.
Shift is right or left.
There is no need to make it harder by mixing those too or throwing in tilt is is a front lens rotation and something completely different.
 

AgX

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You missed my, point. In many camera specifications "shift" is used as superior term and then listed for the 4 directions of it, some "shift and tilt lenses" are rotatable, thus their shift can be directed any way. Some (most?) languages do not even know the terms "rise" and "fall". And this seems the important issue, you are unaware of.
And in this context also from an engineer's point of view "shift" is the superior term.
 
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xkaes

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"Superior" is perhaps not the most superior adjective to use here.
 

Vaughn

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All much of a muchness, as my exwife use to say...

As long as the person one is communicating with understands what one means.
 

abruzzi

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The common terminology obviously long predates me, but in my head I really divide it into two movements--parallel movements and angular movements, then I further subdivide angular movements into front and rear angular movements. The helps my brain compartmentalize them, but I know I need to translate into the common usage when talking to others about it, since my terminology isn't known beyond me, but my thought goes like this:

- parallel movements just allow you to select what part of the image circle you are cropping to. front and rear parallel movements are fully "transitive" (this is really a misuse of this mathmatecal term, but it helps me) in that movement X on the front is identical to movement -X on the rear.

- front angular movements place the plane of focus as well as the zone of apparent focus (i.e. the depth of field) at an oblique angle to the film plane.

- rear angular movement also allow you to place the plane of focus at an oblique angle but also changes the geometry of the image, like converting a rectangle to a trapezoid. Because of the impact on the geometry angular movements are not "transitive".

I understand that in the mechanics of most large format cameras the hardware that enables rise/fall is different from the hardware that enables left/right shift and is probably why the two movements got separate names, but as AgX points out, on 35mm perspective correction lenses, they are usually implemented as a single mechanism--a rail that lets you off-center the lens by a certain amount, and a ring that lets you angle the the "shift" in any direction. To me shift, rise and fall are all the same function and it helps (me) to understand them that way.
 
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@abruzzi,

I think the term you're looking for is rotationally (or radially) symmetrical. In the case of rise/fall vs. shift, the effect is the same, just displaced by 90°, so the movements are rotationally symmetrical.

The same with tilts vs. swings; just displaced 90° and therefore also rotationally symmetrical.

Rise, fall and lateral shift are a family. Front tilts and swings are a family. Rear tilts and swings are a family. Front and rear tilts and swings have different effects on the image projection, so can't be in the same family, even though they work the same

Base tilts need more iterative refocusing than axis tilts, but the effect is exactly the same. Swings are almost always axis swings, even on bare-bones field cameras. Asymmetrical tilts and swings are just a refinement of axis tilts and swings; the axes are just offset. Just different mechanical solutions to the same problem

Really, all the mechanics and methods of moving things around on a view camera are just ways to get the lens and the film plane into different spatial relationships. Sometimes I figure out what that relationship is going to have to be to get the effect I want before I decide how to go about accomplishing that. There's more than one way to get effective rise, for example.

Image perspective is controlled by viewpoint (camera position) and the angular position of the film (camera back) in relation to the subject. To get a specific angular positioning of the back relative to the subject, one can either set up and then tilt/swing the back to get it where you want it or just set up with the back in the desired orientation and then tilt/swing/shift to get the lens in the right position. The end result is the same.

Back to our original topic: In order to keep vertical parallel lines from converging, the camera back has to be set up parallel to them. Set up your camera with the back parallel to start with and then use rise to frame the image or set up with the camera pointing up to frame the image and then tilt back (and lens to retain focus) parallel to the subject lines. Either way ends up with the same spatial relationship between back to subject and lens to film.

Want to do the same with horizontal parallel lines? Well the movements are rotationally symmetrical so...

Best,

Doremus
 

AgX

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Abruzzi, I am totally with you. I rather see movements by their kind and by their effect, less by their name. This also may be added by that I learned about this all first without the English terms. Moreover I realized that terms vary between languages.

The thing is to try to understand the basic effects. And then transfer them to real existing cameras. And here seemingly the forest easily gets hidden by the trees.
Think of the remark by some other fellow above that it took him very long time to understand that "direct rise" and indirect rise" are basically the same. (In this case the application of one or the other may be due to movement limitations at the camera, or the strive for better stability or to avoid yaw, etc.)
 

Jim Andrada

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I think this can be really simplified. To start, yes, the image circle of the lens must be significantly larger than the film dimension.

What does this mean???

It means that the actual image projected by the lens onto the film plane (actually, probably mostly hitting the bellows...) is a lot bigger than what you see on your ground glass. Raising the lens (not the camera) raises the part of the image that you couldn't see because it used to be off the bottom of the ground glass up to where you can see it. And since the image is inverted, what you get is to bring more of the lower part of the larger-than-groundglass-size image (the upper part of the scene) onto the groundglass.

And it's a lot different than raising the camera because you've effectively increased the angle of elevation just as if you had pointed the whole camera up - with the advantage that by keeping the camera back parallel with the object, you won't have any "keystoning" effect where parallel vertical lines become slanted.

If you're taking a photo of a distant mountain. the difference is probably insignificant. If you're photographing a tall building close to you it's VERY significant.
 

grat

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To start, yes, the image circle of the lens must be significantly larger than the film dimension.

Not necessarily. Depending on distance and field of view, 1mm of movement at the film plane can result in many meters of shift at the plane of focus. For 4x5, a 200mm image circle will cover nearly all movements your camera is capable of, and the "base" image circle for 4x5 is ~162mm.
 

AgX

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Grat, good point. Actually plain simple. But as I said : trees and the forest...
 

xkaes

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I'd call a 200mm IC "significantly larger" than 4x5 film. But the IC does NOT necessarily have to be "significantly larger" than 4x5 film. I have two lenses that are "barely" larger than 4x5 film. That's a limitation for shifts & rise/fall -- not so much for swings & tilts. And I have lots of macro lenses with image circles much smaller than 4x5 film -- when focused at infinity, which is NEVER. How bout 12.5mm?
 

grat

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200mm is +19mm in all four directions. That's less than an inch in any direction.

How many buildings do you photograph with those macro lenses?
 

xkaes

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Fujinon, alone, made around a dozen NON-macro large format 4x5" lenses with image circles smaller than that -- mostly wide angle, of course -- so they thought it worthwhile. For buildings I'm usually using a wide lens, and most of the wide lenses I have do not have humongous image circles. You can label it whatever you want, but a lot of photographers have image circles way larger than they need -- and they don't even realize the problems that can cause.
The issue is how much IC do you need, and that depends on the subject. For many, like portraiture and close-ups/macro, you don't need much at all.
 

reddesert

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Books on large format photography such as Simmons's "Using the View Camera" or Stroebel's "View Camera Techniques" typically have an entire chapter devoted to the effects of front and back movements, with illustrations. In both of these books, the illustrations include photos of a set of children's wood cubes with letters, so that you get a sense of how the movements can shift both perspective and focus.

When you have questions about the effect of movements, I recommend looking at a photo-heavy medium such as one of these books. Words can only do so much. I don't know of a website that has as comprehensive a set of illustrations.
 

grat

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The issue is how much IC do you need, and that depends on the subject. For many, like portraiture and close-ups/macro, you don't need much at all.

True. I even have a Fuji 105mm f/5.6 with a rather small circle. But this thread is about shift and other movements.
 

xkaes

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True. I even have a Fuji 105mm f/5.6 with a rather small circle. But this thread is about shift and other movements.

Shift and Rise/Fall all depend on "how much IC do you need -- and that depends on the subject".
 
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