In case anyone is really in doubt. Simple shots from a wide iPhone camera.
The first one is equivalent to what you do with shift (I imagine) expect the bottom of the projection would be cut off by the film plane.
Shot straight on with a lot of "distortion" or elongated perspective at the top.
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This one has the top of the tower in the middle and is how a human would perceive the structure if free to look around. But of course the structure appears to be tilting away from you, something we are familiar with through vision, but that is again corrected by the fact that we are scanning with our eyes and head and not analysing stills.
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The last one has the lens looking down to get sort of the opposite effect of the previous one, of the tower leaning towards you.
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My original question is: Does shift as it is used on LF and other shift lenses, use this effect (for lack of better term) to correct converging lines?
Namely mostly the effect in the first photo where the "film plane" is parallel to the vertical structure? But the same basic principal goes for the all of them.
All 135 shift lenses are some kind of wide. That would support what I'm thinking?
So yes, it is in essence perspective I'm talking about. Namely near vanishing point perspective. Or wide perspective if you will.
With this type of shot (whether or not the camera is pointed straight ahead or tilted upward), if you tilt the rear of the camera -- forward or backward -- you can increase (or decrease) the perceived amount of tilt in the tower. As a result, you can set it to where it appears untilted -- if that is what you want. As Stroebel labels it, you are controlling the shape of the subject. Others might say you are controlling the perspective or the distortion.
Shifting a lens is completely different, and will not change any of this. Shifting/Rise&Fall only moves the lens around the image circle. It has no affect on the shape/perspective/distortion of the subject.
Helge,
The effect you show in the first picture
-) is called over here perspective distorsion
-) it is due to the subject plane and the film or sensor plane NOT being in parallel (as would more or less be at much larger distance
To avoid this
-) go far enough away with camera
or
-) arrange your camera so that the film plane is exactly in parallel
-) move the front standard in parallel upwards so that you gain the same subject area as when directung your camera olbliquely upwards
With all respect,, this is the very most basis of camera movement and does necessitate such a discussion.
Unless I still did not got the point you got difficulties with.
90mm T/S for 135 format are not wide. Shift in LF is not used only with wide lenses and yet it "just works".
With this type of shot (whether or not the camera is pointed straight ahead or tilted upward), if you tilt the rear of the camera -- forward or backward -- you can increase (or decrease) the perceived amount of tilt in the tower. As a result, you can set it to where it appears untilted -- if that is what you want. As Stroebel labels it, you are controlling the shape of the subject. Others might say you are controlling the perspective or the distortion.
Shifting a lens is completely different, and will not change any of this. Shifting/Rise&Fall only moves the lens around the image circle. It has no affect on the shape/perspective/distortion of the subject.
If I’m right, moving a tele lens (with large projection circle) around will have very much the same effect as just moving the camera the same distance.
The magic happens when you use a wide.
If I’m right, moving a tele lens (with large projection circle) around will have very much the same effect as just moving the camera the same distance.
The magic happens when you use a wide.
A wide angle of view lens will have perspective distortions, but that will always be the case, think of fisheye lenses that don't cover the film plane.
Right in what?
Alan,Which gives more "rise"?
If I’m right, moving a tele lens (with large projection circle) around will have very much the same effect as just moving the camera the same distance.
The magic happens when you use a wide.
Sorry, just trying to use a worst case example of a wide angle lens. You are correct that the distortion of a wide angle lens is primarily due to scale, along with some barrel distortion, depending on the lens design.-) a classic wide-angle lens does not show the effect a fish-eye lens does
-) the effect a full-frame fishe-eye has is the same as a circular-image one has, just the center part of it now filling the full frame
-) the most typical distortion seen at wide-angle lenses is that due to strong scale differences at subject reproduction, as I explained at my earlier posts. It is not an inherent characteristic of these lenses but instead due to the "mis-use" so to say by the photographer by going too near his subject.
That it’s wide FL effects that create the perspective correction.
I know the fundamental movement doesn’t have the effect. But I can’t see how moving a tele with very orthogonal projection would result in something very much different from just moving the camera the same distance (edit, correction: The distance that would achieve the same projection on the screen/film). Not “the same distance”).
Sorry, just trying to use a worst case example of a wide angle lens. You are correct that the distortion of a wide angle lens is primarily due to scale, along with some barrel distortion, depending on the lens design.
Helge's argument seems to be that a rise movement is only useful with a wide angle lens, which is incorrect.
... Shifting a tele or normal would seem to only move you to a slightly different part of the orthogonal projection.
If for example your camera is pointed at the bottom part of a building and you shift it what does that accomplish?
Why can't I be this succinct?Well, the amount of effective shift is going to be roughly the same as the ratio between the image circle on the film plane, and the image circle at the plane of sharp focus.
The reason shift "corrects" perspective distortion is that it doesn't. The perspective distortion is created by tilting the camera so that the lens and the film plane are no long parallel to the building. This is usually because you can't get a tall building fully into the frame standing on the ground without tilting the camera.
Shifting the lens allows you to get the rest of the building into the field of view, without tilting the camera, therefore no distortion is created.
There is a 90mm T/S for 135?
The reason shift "corrects" perspective distortion is that it doesn't. The perspective distortion is created by tilting the camera so that the lens and the film plane are no long parallel to the building. This is usually because you can't get a tall building fully into the frame standing on the ground without tilting the camera.
Shifting the lens allows you to get the rest of the building into the field of view, without tilting the camera, therefore no distortion is created.
Shifting the lens allows you to get the rest of the building into the field of view, without tilting the camera, therefore no distortion is created.
Don't you mean "raising" the lens?
Great, now we are getting somewhere.
Do you have some examples?
Shifting a tele or normal would seem to only move you to a slightly different part of the orthogonal projection.
If for example your camera is pointed at the bottom part of a building and you shift it what does that accomplish?
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